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      01-09-2019, 07:02 AM   #23
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The f90 doesn't really have much lag at all in sport plus, as others have pointed out. It has surprisingly good high RPM performance for a turbo and doesn't just run out of breath like alot of turbos do.

That said, it doesn't have that sharp, edgy responsiveness that a good NA motor has. No turbo does.

On the flip side, no NA motor has the explosive thrust that a good turbo has - like what you get with the f90.

I'm going to end up getting an old school Porsche, ie 993, as a third car to fill that void. At that point, I think I'll be practically set for life.
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      01-09-2019, 07:11 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
I know you say you know the difference but are you SURE it's not throttle lag? It staggers me how much throttle lag there is programmed into BMWs.

On a related note, I am beginning to shop for a toy car or angry DD and I have it down to three cars, 911 S, Mustang V8 or rod bearing M3.

Notice a trend?
it might be both throttle and turbo lag, I have experienced throttle lag in past non-turbo cars (2015 C7) but turbos add a whole nother level of lag
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      01-09-2019, 08:33 AM   #25
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gee i find the throttle lag much worse than the turbo lag in the X3 blown 6. if i switch to SPORT it feels WAY, WAY better but in comfort it's a nightmare to get off the line.
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      01-09-2019, 09:21 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
gee i find the throttle lag much worse than the turbo lag in the X3 blown 6. if i switch to SPORT it feels WAY, WAY better but in comfort it's a nightmare to get off the line.
Wait, people actually press the Comfort button?!
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      01-09-2019, 10:12 AM   #27
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thats the standard setting. ECO > COMFORT > SPORT
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      01-09-2019, 11:10 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfisti View Post
thats the standard setting. ECO > COMFORT > SPORT
Oh yeah, was thinking you meant Eco. Don't have a BMW anymore and always just hit Sport in the wife's lousy old F30.

And Comfort seems like a misnomer with RFTs.
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      01-09-2019, 06:01 PM   #29
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Missing stage: Simply buy one of the remaining badass NA cars out there and cherish it.

I actually miss the turbo engine of my F82 slightly. It's not better than an NA car but a different animal. Ideally, I'd have a beastly NA and more tunable turbo in the garage. Different flavors for different moods.
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      01-09-2019, 08:37 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Sorry for the edit... but there is a 6th stage :

5. Hope...the final stage I've arrived at is to recognize that one day I will be back with normal aspiration and I when I am in a place again in life where I can have a wonderful torquey normally aspirated car with a manual transmission I will hold on to it,

6. Pipe Dream...until and unless they start making them again.
Unless you are moving big cylinders, like my 6.2L V8, it's going to be hard to get a lot of torque down low with a N/A engine. They don't quite rev as fast as smaller cylinders. You can also get something that revs faster, like a flat-6, but that puts you back into having to rev more to reach the torque.
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      01-09-2019, 10:11 PM   #31
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James said pretty much what I was about to. Engines with large displacement and more importantly longer stroke make wonderful TQ. Even a stellar plant like the E46's M3 I6 masterpiece makes marginal TQ and only makes it towards the top of the band. Big bore displacement and long stroke is what you need for that asphalt Shredding TQ or stick with FI which gives you that flat wide curve of TQ most of us love. Now if you can get Displacement, stroke and FI you're smiling ear to ear.
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      01-10-2019, 05:28 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Unless you are moving big cylinders, like my 6.2L V8, it's going to be hard to get a lot of torque down low with a N/A engine. They don't quite rev as fast as smaller cylinders. You can also get something that revs faster, like a flat-6, but that puts you back into having to rev more to reach the torque.
I've been driving a N/A car with 4, 6, or 8 cylinders for 4 decades and their torque has worked fine for me so far. Yeah, I'm an old dinosaur, I get it, but how I get to work hasn't changed either. My stable right now has a 5.3L small block, two BMW N/A 6, BMW 4-banger, and a flat-six (Honda M/C). All are great classic engines IMO. I get speeding tickets like everyone else. So I need more torque lower in the rev band because...?
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Last edited by Efthreeoh; 01-10-2019 at 05:33 AM..
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      01-10-2019, 05:31 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
James said pretty much what I was about to. Engines with large displacement and more importantly longer stroke make wonderful TQ. Even a stellar plant like the E46's M3 I6 masterpiece makes marginal TQ and only makes it towards the top of the band. Big bore displacement and long stroke is what you need for that asphalt Shredding TQ or stick with FI which gives you that flat wide curve of TQ most of us love. Now if you can get Displacement, stroke and FI you're smiling ear to ear.
Take a E30 325i with an M20 and manual transmission in it vs. a F30 N20 auto down a back country road with elevation changes and turns and tell me which car is better to drive...
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      01-10-2019, 06:48 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
I’m curious, what were your “NA parameters”?

My powertrain parameters for a fun car have usually been NA, MT, RWD, sounds great, and high revving if possible. There are still a precious few of those cars out there, but (a) not for long and (b) not for cheap.

Your “hope” stage is probably never going to pan out so my plan is to hoard these cars till i die.
I wanted a smallish car with a good manumatic...
the is350 failed on the transmission front

I realize NA's will probably not come back but a man can dream
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      01-10-2019, 06:55 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Unless you are moving big cylinders, like my 6.2L V8, it's going to be hard to get a lot of torque down low with a N/A engine. They don't quite rev as fast as smaller cylinders. You can also get something that revs faster, like a flat-6, but that puts you back into having to rev more to reach the torque.
I don't need big torque, I was happy with the torque in my e86 n52 coupe, it's more about the torque being available down low and being accessible through crisp throttle response

the comparison I always turn to was the old prelude vs mx6 with the v6, the latter had that low end torque and throttle response that made me buy it over the prelude
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      01-10-2019, 07:37 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Take a E30 325i with an M20 and manual transmission in it vs. a F30 N20 auto down a back country road with elevation changes and turns and tell me which car is better to drive...
Interesting that you hamper the N20 car with an auto but give your choice a stick. I'll take a row your own box with the N20 to make it a more fair comparison.
With the conundrum you pose I would choose the turbo 4 car. Lighter power plant for less weight on the nose, more hp and that lovely TQ at lower rpm and over a wider part of graph therefore more usable. It also comes on quicker to get one out of those tight switchback turns you put us on. It doesn't have to spin as fast to make even more useable power.
For a more nostalgic leisurely drive I would take the E30.
That said, neither of those cars would be high on my list of BMW's to run on a curvy back country road. I prefer V8's or FI I6's. The only 4 cyl engines I've owned ride on two wheels.
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      01-10-2019, 09:33 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baege View Post
I wanted a smallish car with a good manumatic...
the is350 failed on the transmission front

I realize NA's will probably not come back but a man can dream
Ha, that sounds like a simple set of wants but it’s actually really difficult. “Smallish” eliminates all the N/A muscle cars, “good manumatic” eliminates a LOT of stuff because the only dual-clutches i’ve driven that are good are made by BMW, Porsche, Audi and Ferrari

You should get a GT3
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      01-10-2019, 11:16 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Interesting that you hamper the N20 car with an auto but give your choice a stick. I'll take a row your own box with the N20 to make it a more fair comparison.
With the conundrum you pose I would choose the turbo 4 car. Lighter power plant for less weight on the nose, more hp and that lovely TQ at lower rpm and over a wider part of graph therefore more usable. It also comes on quicker to get one out of those tight switchback turns you put us on. It doesn't have to spin as fast to make even more useable power.
For a more nostalgic leisurely drive I would take the E30.
That said, neither of those cars would be high on my list of BMW's to run on a curvy back country road. I prefer V8's or FI I6's. The only 4 cyl engines I've owned ride on two wheels.
Adding fuel to the fire, the response in sport or sport+ on the N20 is fine, I liked that engine when using that setting, and that's not about the turbo, just the throttle response and mapping. Again, massive difference to my WRX that used the same size engine and turbo, because the WRX was piping a bunch of exhaust all over the place to eventually reach the turbo, rather than just tapping right off the valves like the N20. The N20 is engineered to give early and flat torque, the EJ205 was not. Running the air conditioner in the 205 sometimes would cause the car to have to have terrible lugging in 2nd gear around uphill mountain curves. Shifting to first is usually unheard of for such turns, but at 2000 rpm, you couldn't climb out of 2nd. Going back to the throttle mapping and response, after driving in all different modes and looking at what the RPM and gears were, I attribute the response more to this than any "turbo lag" issue.
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      01-10-2019, 09:45 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N54Yankee View Post
Interesting that you hamper the N20 car with an auto but give your choice a stick. I'll take a row your own box with the N20 to make it a more fair comparison.
With the conundrum you pose I would choose the turbo 4 car. Lighter power plant for less weight on the nose, more hp and that lovely TQ at lower rpm and over a wider part of graph therefore more usable. It also comes on quicker to get one out of those tight switchback turns you put us on. It doesn't have to spin as fast to make even more useable power.
For a more nostalgic leisurely drive I would take the E30.
That said, neither of those cars would be high on my list of BMW's to run on a curvy back country road. I prefer V8's or FI I6's. The only 4 cyl engines I've owned ride on two wheels.
I gave it an auto because that is pretty much the way BMW packages it. Turbo engines don't breath like N/A engines do. The FI's are light switches. The M20 with a manual in an E30 chassis is pretty much magic to drive. When you hear of the legacy BMW driving experience, that is what you are hearing about; it's not leisure...
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      01-10-2019, 11:23 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I gave it an auto because that is pretty much the way BMW packages it. Turbo engines don't breath like N/A engines do. The FI's are light switches. The M20 with a manual in an E30 chassis is pretty much magic to drive. When you hear of the legacy BMW driving experience, that is what you are hearing about; it's not leisure...
BMW makes them with autos and sticks, the company gives the people what they want and it just so happens that most want autos. People can and do buy them with manuals.
We're all aware that FI cars aren't the same as as NA cars but they're not 'light switches'. I happen to have a 135 and it lays down a healthy bit more power then when stock. Many guys here have cars with well over 350 hp and are able to easily modulate their throttles, clutch and shift while managing to keep from crashing into everything in sight. It's really not difficult.
One guys magic is another's guys leisure, that's strictly opinion and they vary from person to person.
My nephew has a 325i, Great cars but
not my cup of tea for excitment.
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Last edited by N54Yankee; 01-11-2019 at 07:03 AM..
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      01-10-2019, 11:32 PM   #41
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You're ignoring the fact that BMW USA has guided dealers to not order manuals without a sales order and the G20 will not have a manual. It's great that the F3x was available with a manual, but from 2016 forward, they were increasingly more rare and now they're gone entirely.
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      01-11-2019, 06:18 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth One View Post
Ha, that sounds like a simple set of wants but it’s actually really difficult. “Smallish” eliminates all the N/A muscle cars, “good manumatic” eliminates a LOT of stuff because the only dual-clutches i’ve driven that are good are made by BMW, Porsche, Audi and Ferrari

You should get a GT3
the zf8 is actually a pretty good manumatic, but it doesn't come in any normally aspirated cars...

GT3...maybe one day
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      01-11-2019, 07:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You're ignoring the fact that BMW USA has guided dealers to not order manuals without a sales order and the G20 will not have a manual. It's great that the F3x was available with a manual, but from 2016 forward, they were increasingly more rare and now they're gone entirely.
bottom line is the car Eft chose was an F30 which was available with a 6 speed manual and to make it more fair for this hypothetical endeavor, comparing apples to apples both cars should be equipped similarly.
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      01-13-2019, 01:25 AM   #44
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Every time I drive my na it feels slow. Slow like a dog. The non turbo lag is pretty bad
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