[mattgod69]

Hi all... I am thinking of getting a Ghost Immobiliser fitted to my almost new, but new to me, 840i convertible... has anyone got these fitted? What are your thoughts? Where is the best place to go for the fitting? Do you know if it can cause any warranty issues? Cheers. Matt

[VP007]

Looked into this, but was put off by potential warranty issues.

Warranty will only be an issue if BMW suspect that the problem you are claiming for was a result of the Ghost Immobiliser fitted.

I went for a Faraday box and Faraday pouch in the end.

The later BMW car keys go to sleep after about 1min of no movement, so not as susceptible to the relay signal attacks.

[Carlito_UK]

Was told no issues, especially if someone has hp or pcp, protects their investment as well.

[crabman]

Get a pouch/box off of Amazon, place it between you and your route to the car, profit.

It never breaks, always works, you know where to find the key, if the fob fails to shut down it wont keep the car awake no matter how close it is to the car.

It's cheap, portable, easy, and works for the next car as well.

Never make simple harder.

[M8Bimmer]

Yup for me the faraday box or pouches are the ticket. I use them everyday. I also use a steering lock and ODB port lock out device.

[M8Bimmer]

The bastards are now kicking in doors in the middle of the night and demanding keys. Or searching for them. It's getting worse by the month here.
They see or know where a nice ride is and they target you. Either as you drive away to jack you or simply home invade. We NEVER had these issues here in Canada before .....ahem.......I'll say no more.
They try that at my house and they can enjoy a nice loud siren. Or my friendly 12 gauge.

[crabman]

There you go, giving them both barrels doesn't have to be a metaphor.

Still, you do need to separate the reality from the Facebook view of the world. Even here in the good ol US of A it's a very rare occurance for thugs to bust into a house and brute force a car from it's owners. Think about it, you get zero head start, you take the substantial risk of the homeowners doing something about it, real possibility you're going to be documenting your heist on video, etc.

The rate of car jacking per 1000 people has been on the decline for years and sits at .12 as of 2022, the last year for which I can find numbers that align; keeping in mind that car jacking on the road or from a home fall into that statistic, not all the numbers you read define a jacking by force in both ways.

An interesting number jump out: Those with an income of less than 75k are more than 3 times more likely to be a victim of an at force car jack which tells you something about where they are occurring with more frequency when you consider roughly 39 percent of all car jacks occur within the victim's local area.

I think it's like the concept that riding the bus is dangerous. It's not, for every person you see attacked on the news literally millions rode without any issue. But someone getting on and off a bus and nothing happened isn't going to make the news, where someone getting attacked will. This bias is hard to set aside even when you know it exists.

For all that in the type of neighborhood high end BMWs live I think you're much more likely to see a relay attack or a simple flat bed haul away of cars in a driveway than an armed jack.

[Carlito_UK]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

The bastards are now kicking in doors in the middle of the night and demanding keys. Or searching for them. It's getting worse by the month here.
They see or know where a nice ride is and they target you. Either as you drive away to jack you or simply home invade. We NEVER had these issues here in Canada before .....ahem.......I'll say no more.
They try that at my house and they can enjoy a nice loud siren. Or my friendly 12 gauge.

before what exactly?

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by VP007

I went for a Faraday box and Faraday pouch in the end.

To each their own but Faraday boxes and pouches are not really needed.

Originally Posted by VP007

The later BMW car keys go to sleep after about 1min of no movement, so not as susceptible to the relay signal attacks.

They do but from my testing it's 5 minutes. That's for my 2020 M850i as well as my wife's new X5 LCI. Works like a champ with both keys roughly 10 to 15 feet from the cars stationary in the kitchen (closest point to the cars in the garage and fire off remote starts from both within it). DOA and no way for a replay attack.

[crabman]

Relay attacks nowadays usually employ both receive and send signal amplification and can work at over 40 feet between the second man and the fob. With most homes this is more than enough distance and the second man can usually pick up a signal at the front door; this is the preferred location since it's usually public facing and an excuse can be made for being there. If that fails then it's circle the house time but that's usually not needed.

Few homes are going to have a fob beyond the reach of a relay attack.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by crabman

Relay attacks nowadays usually employ both receive and send signal amplification and can work at over 40 feet between the second man and the fob. With most homes this is more than enough distance and the second man can usually pick up a signal at the front door; this is the preferred location since it's usually public facing and an excuse can be made for being there. If that fails then it's circle the house time but that's usually not needed.

Few homes are going to have a fob beyond the reach of a relay attack.

Garage to our MBR where the keys are kept in a basket on the dresser is well beyond 80 feet. More than 40 feet from standing by the front door like an imbecile considering the cameras will sense motion out to the front lawn/driveway/entryway (smart geo'd to not pick up the sidewalk or street due to privacy laws). Plus have a camera in the garage itself that senses motion, lights up and notifies (Pink Panther sound for it).

Break that distance (front of the house) and I'm notified on my cellphone as both Nest and Ring can punch through my Do Not Disturb setting that automatically goes into effect at different times depending on the week vs weekend. Somehow get covertly into the garage (but it too has a controller via MyQ that is integrated into the Ring alarm system) and good luck.

On the street too far away period. But once again the fobs go to sleep in 5 minutes so all DOA regardless for a replay attack. The lore of the need for a faraday box/pouch is just that, i.e., an after thought in today's world post 2016 when BMW made all fobs with the motion sensing sleep timer.

Take it from a CTO (me) that lives in the world of technology/security every day of the week as well as my partnership with the company's CISO. There are more things to worry about in the modern age vs replay attacks on a post 2016 BMW key fob. For starters get your IoT devices (Alexa, FireTV, Roku, Nest, Google Home, smart lighting, etc.) on a different network firewalled off from the core one's laptops, etc. run on.

Attached is an example of my home network. Default is the core, IoT is all my FireTVs, Nest, and even Ring alarm plus cameras, etc. NoT is the oddball as it's IoT that needs to talk to the core, e.g., my HEOS (similar to Sonus) or Lutron Caseta lighting but the firewall rules still restrict that to least privilege events and cannot do an East/West attack against the core.

[crabman]

That little pouch is many times easier than everything you just described and a hell of a lot cheaper.

It also continues to work for cars like BMW and Porsche with timers because thieves learn and higher end cars are often stolen from homes by (sorta) pros that know they need to move in quickly before the fob shuts down.

I get what you're saying but I can't agree with it; a cage is cheap, easy, fast, effective, and requires no effort whatsoever. I call that a win compared to setting up multiple layers of security that have to be administered and tended to while not actually working more effectively to prevent theft via relay.

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by Carlito_UK

before what exactly?

I'd rather not say. It's not politically correct. To be honest anymore.

We never had the sort of crime we have now in the southern Ontario region.
We have an epidemic of stolen vehicles here. Organized crime rings with very savvy techniques. Car jacking, home invasion, Parking lot jackings.
5 years ago these were not nearly as common as they are now.
It's becoming a real issue here. The cops now have special teams just working on this car theft problem. The stolen cars are in containers hours after being stolen and off the Montreal very quickly. To be shipped to some really scummy foreign countries who love stolen vehicles.
Some 40,510 vehicles of all types were registered as stolen in Ontario between November of 2021 and January of 2024, data released by the Ministry of Transportation shows. That comes to just over 50 a day

Toronto was once a good city. I now avoid it. Frankly if your thinking of visiting Toronto....don't. Your likely to get robbed just sitting in your high end car drinking a coffee.
Anyway nobodies gonna get my cars. I go out of my way to prevent this.
For more than 30 years I was in charge of security for a company.....mine.
I went over the top generally to be pro-active on security. I feel It went pretty well. Only robbed 3 times in 30 years. Not bad.
It kind of made me into a security whore...lol

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by crabman

That little pouch is many times easier than everything you just described and a hell of a lot cheaper.

What I described had nothing to do with a replay attack against one's BMW (2017 on) key fob). Rather protecting your home network from hackers along with general home security.

Originally Posted by crabman

It also continues to work for cars like BMW and Porsche with timers because thieves learn and higher end cars are often stolen from homes by (sorta) pros that know they need to move in quickly before the fob shuts down.

Well if they're following you home then to your point game on in 5 minutes before the fob goes to sleep. But I have layers of protection all which cost <$1K (Ring alarm, cameras and MyQ on the garage door). But a $100K plus car and just a rounding error and would have it anyway even if it was just 2 Kias in the garage vs the M850i and X5 LCI (replaced the wife's 2017 X5 post accident).

Originally Posted by crabman

I get what you're saying but I can't agree with it; a cage is cheap, easy, fast, effective, and requires no effort whatsoever. I call that a win compared to setting up multiple layers of security that have to be administered and tended to while not actually working more effectively to prevent theft via relay.

No administration or tending to. Lights off (literally) protection once set up and configured. The Ring system has 2 battery packs on it and will run for 8 hours even during a power outage. Home Internet fails (I have redundancy with two ISPs) and it falls back to cellular. All network gear runs off two dedicated UPS devices with a 4 hour runtime each if a power outage. Had that in place even before the Ring (replaced a legacy Ademco alarm system).

[crabman]

And all that is easier than a bag to prevent relay attacks and other fob spoofing gambits which is what the OP asked about and the use of a Ghost Immobilizer?

[overklok]

It's 14 and 15 year kids in DC doing the carjackings these days.
DC just passed a new crime bill, hopefully some of these punks will get some real jail time.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by crabman

And all that is easier than a bag to prevent relay attacks and other fob spoofing gambits which is what the OP asked about and the use of a Ghost Immobilizer?

Yes, as the fobs go dormant within 5 minutes. Also, all what is easier? My Ring alarm system plus cameras, etc. would exist nonetheless regardless if I had two Kias (no offense to Kia owners) vs the M850i and X5 LCI. It all exists to protect the true appreciating assets in the house vs the cars. Cars are easy to replace and depreciating shit shows. The rest nearly impossible and all appreciating and worth 20X the cars.

I have to swap those assets between my home safe and safe deposit box monthly based on the insurance rider for them, i.e., 30 days TTL outside of the bank safe deposit box but when at home they live in a safe which is hidden, 14 hours fire proof, etc.

You're getting lost in the lore for a need for a faraday box/pouch. Can't help you there but the last of my worries is someone stealing either BMW. Childs play to replace vs the real assets.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by overklok

It's 14 and 15 year kids in DC doing the carjackings these days.
DC just passed a new crime bill, hopefully some of these punks will get some real jail time.

Exactly why I have a CCW (concealed carry weapon) permit. I've joked that the back seat of my M850i is good for a box of Kleenex, an Adams Double Soft (dust the iDrive and console) and the sun visor. But in reality it has a SIG Sauer .40 caliber p226 ready to go at all times in an easy arms length (helps if you are 6'6" tall). They can take the car for all I care but I'm driving around with other assets that can buy the car 2 to 5X and do not depreciate but rather appreciate.

[crabman]

Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ

Yes, as the fobs go dormant within 5 minutes. Also, all what is easier? My Ring alarm system plus cameras, etc. would exist nonetheless regardless if I had two Kias (no offense to Kia owners) vs the M850i and X5 LCI. It all exists to protect the true appreciating assets in the house vs the cars. Cars are easy to replace and depreciating shit shows. The rest nearly impossible and all appreciating and worth 20X the cars.

I have to swap those assets between my home safe and safe deposit box monthly based on the insurance rider for them, i.e., 30 days TTL outside of the bank safe deposit box but when at home they live in a safe which is hidden, 14 hours fire proof, etc.

You're getting lost in the lore for a need for a faraday box/pouch. Can't help you there but the last of my worries is someone stealing either BMW. Childs play to replace vs the real assets.

You're getting lost in the need to dickslap over your gear which has little to do with the argument you're trying to make, and in turn has little to do with what the OP asked, or the subject at hand. Having said that, a lot of people have assets; I wouldn't be so quick to trot out the bragging.

I'll leave the last word with you as cheap, easy, and works, is good enough for me. I have nothing more to add otherwise.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by crabman

You're getting lost in the need to dickslap over your gear which has little to do with the argument you're trying to make, and in turn has little to do with what the OP asked, or the subject at hand. Having said that, a lot of people have assets; I wouldn't be so quick to trot out the bragging.

No dickslapping (geez is that even a word?). Not bragging in any what way as those that know me on the forum clearly understand that. As per the question from the OP, to your point I'll clearly state it again, i.e., with the 5 minutes sleep time on a modern (post 2016) BMW key fob you are chasing unicorns with your faraday box/pouch. Let's leave it at that as reality dictates you are wrong.

Originally Posted by crabman

I'll leave the last word with you as cheap, easy, and works, is good enough for me. I have nothing more to add otherwise.

However cheap or whatever you spent is money wasted (see above). Have a nice life as clearly you are clueless with reality. Peace out.

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by overklok

It's 14 and 15 year kids in DC doing the carjackings these days.
DC just passed a new crime bill, hopefully some of these punks will get some real jail time.

We have the same punks here too. 15 year old's with stolen guns from the US. Quite a popular accessory in Toronto and surrounding areas.
Because they're minors they get sent home to be scolded by Mommy and Daddy. U-huh...right.
Back to the streets the next week. If they haven't shot each other yet.
Huge string of jewelry stores robberies here in malls. Most all kids up to 25 years old. Mostly teens though.
I'm wondering this? If they can clone your debit card in your pocket or purse, what about an active key fob? Follow you somewhere and clone it as you stand in Starbucks or where ever. Then voom......8 series gonzo!

Is this a stupid idea? Maybe I guess. I'm always trying to think forward on security issues. It would personally burn my ass if I missed something and it got stolen.
Sure I've got insurance . But we all know how that goes generally.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

We have the same punks here too. 15 year old's with stolen guns from the US. Quite a popular accessory in Toronto and surrounding areas.

Sadly everywhere for the most part.

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

I'm wondering this? If they can clone your debit card in your pocket or purse, what about an active key fob? Follow you somewhere and clone it as you stand in Starbucks or where ever. Then voom......8 series gonzo!

Ah the irony as I have a Ridge wallet (technically a card holder and $ clip) for that exact reason. To your point if someone is actively following you then yes they can do a replay attack while your 8-series is in the parking lot while you are in Starbucks and within the 40 feet distance required.

They don't clone the fob per se. But they can steal info from a credit cards magnetic strip which is a gold mine of data if they pull it off.