[Grumpy Old Man]

https://driving.ca/toyota/auto-news/...ogen-refueling

I've been wondering if and when an alternative to BEV's would surface with any seriousness.

Honda and Toyota shocked the Montreal auto show last week by announcing a partnership in developing a hydrogen-refueling infrastructure in Quebec. La Belle Province makes a perfect venue for this unexpected cooperation because of its abundance of hydro-powered electricity (of which much is required to electrolyze hydrogen from water) and its California-inspired push to zero-emissions vehicles.

Nonetheless, the two are normally the archest of rivals so the joint announcement — by Martin Gilbert, Toyota Canada’s director of corporate strategy and innovation and Jean-Marc Leclerc, VP of sales and marketing for Honda Canada — in this multi-fuel initiative was surprise to the assembled media.

To us, what’s most exciting is that the station will use an on-site electrolyzer to turn Quebec’s abundant hydroelectricity into clean, sustainable hydrogen for fuel cell electric vehicles,” said Gilbert with Leclerc adding that “this investment will create an environment where we can continue to test our products and educate Canadians on the vast potential of hydrogen-powered vehicles today knowing that mass adoption could take some time.”

Honda and Toyota are, of course, hoping to promote their fuel cell-powered offerings, the Honda Clarity and Toyota’s Mirai, which, of course, lack any commercial outlets where they can be refueled. The first station — a cooperation between Hydrogenics (who will produce the actual electrolyzer) and Harnois Energies (one of the largest chains of gas stations in Quebec) — will be in Quebec City. Another is already planned for Montreal and each will produce about 200 kilograms of hydrogen — enough for about H2 50 fill-ups — per day.

In other Toyota alternative fuel news, Kenworth and Toyota announced that they will jointly develop 10 hydrogen-powered tractors-trailers for use at the Port of Los Angeles. The new FCEV semis will feature Toyota’s hydrogen fuel cell technology built into Kenworth’s T680 trucks and will transport cargo as far away as Hueneme and Merced.

Funding to the tune of US$41 million from the California Air Resources Bureau (CARB) will help finance the Zero-Emission and Near Zero-Emission Freight Facilities.

[Red Bread]

Yawn. H remains stupid as the cost of isolating it is greater than the power released.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yawn. H remains stupid as the cost of isolating it is greater than the power released.

Perhaps. BEV's have their challenges too so I guess time will tell.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Perhaps. BEV's have their challenges too so I guess time will tell.

Agreed. But I have plugs every four feet in my house. I only have clips of the Hindenburg eating it to remind me of how awesome hydrogen is.

[Red Bread]

Now let's be honest, I assume our hydrogen wouldn't come from China and Russia like all of the heavy metals in our batteries. So yeah, let's pursue alternatives.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Now let's be honest, I assume our hydrogen wouldn't come from China and Russia like all of the heavy metals in our batteries. So yeah, let's pursue alternatives.

I'm no rocket surgeon but I think hydrogen is more readily available.....

[Dogeeseegod]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Agreed. But I have plugs every four feet in my house. I only have clips of the Hindenburg eating it to remind me of how awesome hydrogen is.

It's a good thing there have never been any fires related to gasoline powered vehicles...

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by Dogeeseegod

It's a good thing there have never been any fires related to gasoline powered vehicles...

I drive a VW. They're super clean!

[mkoesel]

Let's not forget that the EV category comprises two primary types: BEVs and FCEVs. Both are driven by electric motors, they simply use different means of providing electricity to the motor. A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCEV) is therefore not an alternative to an EV - it *is* an EV. It is, however, an alternative to a battery electric vehicle (BEV).

Prevailing opinion suggests that FCEV will be limited mostly to commercial vehicles for the next decade or so.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Let's not forget that the EV category comprises two primary types: BEVs and FCEVs. Both are driven by electric motors, they simply use different means of providing electricity to the motor. A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCEV) is therefore not an alternative to an EV - it *is* an EV. It is, however, an alternative to a battery electric vehicle (BEV).

Prevailing opinion suggests that FCEV will be limited mostly to commercial vehicles for the next decade or so.

Isn't anything that isn't EV's etc an alternative? And I think it's going to more than a decade before Ev's etc are really mainstream. Autonomous vehicles are about 2 decades out based on my sources.

[Dogeeseegod]

I read a BMW article about a decade ago that summed up the cost of creating hydrogen fuel, storing it, creating electricity with it and then powering electric motors was not an efficient use of technology, time and certainly energy, but they wanted to do the research to see if any breakthroughs could be found that would revolutionize vehicle energy. I haven't heard of any such revolutions. Still seems like an excess amount of energy conversion to make a motor spin.

[Grumpy Old Man]

Originally Posted by Dogeeseegod

I read a BMW article about a decade ago that summed up the cost of creating hydrogen fuel, storing it, creating electricity with it and then powering electric motors was not an efficient use of technology, time and certainly energy, but they wanted to do the research to see if any breakthroughs could be found that would revolutionize vehicle energy. I haven't heard of any such revolutions. Still seems like an excess amount of energy conversion to make a motor spin.

Perhaps, but like everything else.....I remember when a 42" Plasma TV was $25,000.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Perhaps. BEV's have their challenges too so I guess time will tell.

True, but hydrogen is just ridiculous from many perspectives.

You still have to truck it everywhere, build trucks to truck it everywhere, burn fuel trucking it, store it in tanks, built special tanks for it everywhere, and on and on. And the vehicle is tied to hydrogen, so no matter where it's at, it must rely on a process to isolate hydrogen and deliver that hydrogen. As an example, gasoline and diesel can be put into standard packaging (according to US hazmat regulations) that consists of steel barrels. Simple and easy to move. Bigger tanks are essentially just a bigger version of this. Hydrogen is not even close in terms of it's portability and the logistics of transporting.

As compared to an EV, where infrastructure is already in place, maybe not at the level where "everyone" can plug in at once, but at least at the level where many can and do right now. The EV doesn't care where the power comes from, hydroelectric, wind, thermal, fusion, fission, coal, natural gas, etc. So it's far more flexible, with electrons being the common currency.

Hydrogen fuel cells make sense for some things, like in spacecraft where you don't just need power, but oxygen, but for vehicles is insanely stupid to invest in it. Battery capacity will just continue to increase.

Hydrogen fuel cell cars are simply in denial about where the industry, technology and civilization are headed.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

A hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (FCEV) is therefore not an alternative to an EV - it *is* an EV. It is, however, an alternative to a battery electric vehicle (BEV).

Conceptually, I'd disagree. The thing about the EV is it can be powered by the grid, no matter what source is used to power that grid.

Having to put a combustible fuel into the car to make it go is very much the opposite of an EV. Big construction equipment, dump trucks used at mines, locomotives, etc., are diesel engines running electric generators and motors without direct mechanical connections between the ICE engine and drivetrain. No one calls these EVs.

[Z K]

My friend has a Fuel Cell car. I drove it for a day and it is super easy to use and drive. Besides being a completely silent EV when you are driving, it operates no different than a gas car. I even went and filled up at the station - no different than gas. Just a few minutes to pump and you have another 300 miles of range.

Infrastructure is pretty good in California with hydrogen stations available state wide. You can easily drive across the whole state and fill up anywhere. The only problem is the cost of hydrogen is roughly double the cost of gasoline for the same mileage... but if adoption increases, that will come down.

Definitely a good alternative to BEV vehicles and they should last longer long term as there is no battery to wear down and replace. The average car age on American roads is 10 years old... think of how bad the range will be on a 10 year old battery powered car! A 10 year old fuel cell car will have the same range as brand new. Lithium batteries are not there in terms of long term durability. When new battery technologies come out, that may change things... but currently I think fuel cell cars are superior to battery ev cars for every day use.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man

Isn't anything that isn't EV's etc an alternative?

The point is that a fuel cell vehicle is an EV. It just has a “refillable batttery” in a manner of speaking. An FCEV is indeed an alternative to a BEV though, yes.

Generally, when we use “EV” colloquially to refer to a Leaf or Bolt or Tesla, sure, we all get it - it means “BEV”. But when you talk about an FCEV as an “EV” alternative, using the colloquial becomes ambiguous.

And I think it's going to more than a decade before Ev's etc are really mainstream. Autonomous vehicles are about 2 decades out based on my sources.

You’re right, BEVs aren’t ramping up over night - it will take years. But, nearly every automaker has BEVs in development right now, and they will either hit the market soon (some already have) or will by early next decade. By 2025 there will be dozens on the market in the US and many more in other countries.

Contrast that with FCEVs which will not be in widespread use as personal vehicles any time soon - not before 2030, and maybe not 2040 either. Other than the Mirai and Clarity (FCEV) Edit: and Hyundai Nexo, and some limited prototypes here and there from others, these remain niche. Part of the issue, as Red Bread points out, is the lack of an efficient way to separate the hydrogen. The big advantage, of course, is you can refuel it in a couple minutes just like an ICE.

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Conceptually, I'd disagree. The thing about the EV is it can be powered by the grid, no matter what source is used to power that grid.

Your point is valid. I can’t take credit for the term FCEV, I’m just sharing the facts on the topic.

Having to put a combustible fuel into the car to make it go is very much the opposite of an EV. Big construction equipment, dump trucks used at mines, locomotives, etc., are diesel engines running electric generators and motors without direct mechanical connections between the ICE engine and drivetrain. No one calls these EVs.

The distinction here is zero tailpipe emissions. I suppose if you could switch those diesels to hydrogen combustion (like BMWs old hydrogen 7 Series), then that’s another EV solution too (HCEV?). I’d guess that it isn’t a win vs. just using a fuel cell, but who knows, maybe someone has tried it or is experimenting with it.

[mecheng77]

Originally Posted by Red Bread

Yawn. H remains stupid as the cost of isolating it is greater than the power released.

Just like charging a battery results in efficiency losses; same thing.

The advantage is a near instant fill up and perhaps the fuel cell could last longer than a battery which we all know has a finite life and is made from rare sourced materials.