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      11-30-2018, 12:31 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
What the hell?
Porsches are tracked everywhere very frequently. And of course they're all over the Ring.
Okay, your point was actually regular visitors to the Ring, but yes, there are plenty of them, not two.
Sorry - I forget that tone doesn't convey over the internet sometimes. Of course there are more than 2, lol. It was hyperbole to make a point. I already stated that Porsche is the number one brand on the track.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Plenty of people track Porsche's. I do when I have time. Plus most of my friends who own them do so as well and often are the most familiar to see at the track.

I’ll take a Porsche for the dynamics, sound, and for the much better overall cohesive package.
Don't cherry pick my post. I never said that people don't track their Porsche's - as a matter of fact, I said the exact opposite....

Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725
I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand
What I am saying is that people on forums fail to realize that 99% of car buyers aren't on here with them. The vast, and I mean vast, majority of Porsche's will never see a track. More than any other car? Probably, but that is just saying 10% vs 1%. Still a very small number.

Also - Porsche sound over Ferrari.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
What's the definition of a sports car? Simply put, it's changed to include SUVs and large sedans in the eyes of many.
Nope.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
However whats not an opinion but a FACT is that the vast majority of the porsche cars sold today use a rebranded volkswagen or audi platform. And that is a HUGE difference with Ferrari, and that was the key point of my post. Comparing porsche as a brand to ferrari is completely silly nowadays. Maybe that will change when or if Ferrari sells out and also starts rebranding SUV's, and equip them with 4 cyl engines or diesel engines, like porsche started 15 years ago, but that's not happening right now.
^This. Porsche is a great company that builds awesome cars. To compare them to Ferrari, however, or to say that an SUV can be a 'sports car' is ludicrous.



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      11-30-2018, 12:43 PM   #24
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I also think that a porsche 911 buyer (certainly a gt3 buyer or so) is a completely different person than a Macan buyer. The Macan (or cayenne or even panamera) is bought as a trendy daily driver, but the 911 is bought as a sportscar and only as a daily driver by a true enthousiast. (the amount of 911 owners that also clock the most miles on their 911 of all the cars in their posession is very very small I think).

As for Porsche worrying about AMG's GTR (or any other car that overlaps with their segment): Porsche is I think market leader, but AMG's GT is a pretty good selling car.
And in the higher segmet porsche got competition from mclaren etc.
I also think that the average McLaren (570) buyer or AMG GT(r) buyer also owned one or two 911's in their life, so in that scope they are competitors to porsche.
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      11-30-2018, 12:45 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Ferrari is a totally different manufacturer with completely different products. Only a very small portion of the porsche products overlaps the ferrari target buyer
In that, we can agree. But Porsche is a sports car manufacturer. It simply has a more broad definition of what a sports car is than Ferrari does.

But here's the important part: It always has. Even back in the 70s and 80s when both makers had, at most, 3 to 4 models in its lineup, Porsche's offerings were more broad, and served a broader cross section of enthusiast, than Ferrari's. Ferrari's never been about mass manufacture of any sort. Porsche has always had that in its DNA, even back in the pre-VW 356 days when both it and Ferrari were still independent and family-owned.

Can we agree that Ferrari's closest competitor has always been Lamborghini? So what's the R8 in the scope of this -- and what's the Urus, or the LM002, for that matter, in the scope of all this?
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      11-30-2018, 12:55 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
What the hell?
Porsches are tracked everywhere very frequently. And of course they're all over the Ring.
Okay, your point was actually regular visitors to the Ring, but yes, there are plenty of them, not two.
Sorry - I forget that tone doesn't convey over the internet sometimes. Of course there are more than 2, lol. It was hyperbole to make a point. I already stated that Porsche is the number one brand on the track.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
Plenty of people track Porsche's. I do when I have time. Plus most of my friends who own them do so as well and often are the most familiar to see at the track.

I’ll take a Porsche for the dynamics, sound, and for the much better overall cohesive package.
Don't cherry pick my post. I never said that people don't track their Porsche's - as a matter of fact, I said the exact opposite....

Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725
I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand
What I am saying is that people on forums fail to realize that 99% of car buyers aren't on here with them. The vast, and I mean vast, majority of Porsche's will never see a track. More than any other car? Probably, but that is just saying 10% vs 1%. Still a very small number.

Also - Porsche sound over Ferrari.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
What's the definition of a sports car? Simply put, it's changed to include SUVs and large sedans in the eyes of many.
Nope.



Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
However whats not an opinion but a FACT is that the vast majority of the porsche cars sold today use a rebranded volkswagen or audi platform. And that is a HUGE difference with Ferrari, and that was the key point of my post. Comparing porsche as a brand to ferrari is completely silly nowadays. Maybe that will change when or if Ferrari sells out and also starts rebranding SUV's, and equip them with 4 cyl engines or diesel engines, like porsche started 15 years ago, but that's not happening right now.
^This. Porsche is a great company that builds awesome cars. To compare them to Ferrari, however, or to say that an SUV can be a 'sports car' is ludicrous.



Hey, I'll go off half cocked and then read the actual substance later, okay?

Kinda led with lead there, sorry.
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      11-30-2018, 12:57 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
In that, we can agree. But Porsche is a sports car manufacturer. It simply has a more broad definition of what a sports car is than Ferrari does.
I still dont think its a sportscar manufacturer. I'd call it a performance car manufacturer. Sportscar says it in its word: sports. So to be a sportscar, the design has to somehow align itself with autosport (or motorsport). And in various motorsport competition you see lots of 911's and also caymans/boxters going around the track. But cayennes? macans? I havent seen them racing. Maybe as an entry in the dakar rally, but then a pajero would also be a sportscar....
A macan or cayenne wouldnt stand a chance to a sportscar, given the same engine performance/size on a track. They're high and bulky, and those are not sporscar design principles. They're the opposite.
So I call a miata a sportscar but a cayenne turbo not. Despite the latter one having a bazillion more horsepower.


Quote:
Can we agree that Ferrari's closest competitor has always been Lamborghini? So what's the R8 in the scope of this -- and what's the Urus, or the LM-008, for that matter, in the scope of all this?
The LM-008 wasnt imho a sportscar, but it was a performance car.
And the Urus.... the same. For me the Urus is similar to a cayenne, or a bmw x6m or a bentley betayga etc. Luxury or performance orientated SUV's, but not sportscars. And yes, Lamborghini is nowadays also partly a platform rebrander. With the gallardo/huracan that was imho not a problem as far as sportscar dna goes (the R8 is also a very very good handling sporscar (and revolutionairy when it came out)), but as far as the Urus goes....meh.
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      11-30-2018, 01:59 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
I still dont think its a sportscar manufacturer. I'd call it a performance car manufacturer. Sportscar says it in its word: sports. So to be a sportscar, the design has to somehow align itself with autosport (or motorsport). And in various motorsport competition you see lots of 911's and also caymans/boxters going around the track. But cayennes? macans? I havent seen them racing. Maybe as an entry in the dakar rally, but then a pajero would also be a sportscar....
A macan or cayenne wouldnt stand a chance to a sportscar, given the same engine performance/size on a track. They're high and bulky, and those are not sporscar design principles. They're the opposite.
So I call a miata a sportscar but a cayenne turbo not. Despite the latter one having a bazillion more horsepower.

The LM-008 wasnt imho a sportscar, but it was a performance car.
And the Urus.... the same. For me the Urus is similar to a cayenne, or a bmw x6m or a bentley betayga etc. Luxury or performance orientated SUV's, but not sportscars. And yes, Lamborghini is nowadays also partly a platform rebrander. With the gallardo/huracan that was imho not a problem as far as sportscar dna goes (the R8 is also a very very good handling sporscar (and revolutionairy when it came out)), but as far as the Urus goes....meh.
All fair points.

The point I'm trying to make is a simple one: Porsche's definition of sports car is different than Ferrari's, which is different from Lambo's, which is different than Mazda's, and so on.

To wit: Your definition of 'sports car' would qualify Toyota, Dodge, and Chevy pickups as sports cars. I point that out not to highlight a flaw in your thinking, but to demonstrate that the definition is different depending on the point of view.

Porsche's definition has always been a fairly broad one compared to its perceived market competition (Ferrari being an example), even when it was a relatively small company. I, too, have somewhat of an issue with an SUV or, say, a Panamera being called a sports car. Thing is, when compared to the vehicles with which they share DNA, they are certainly the most 'sports' of the lot by a considerable amount. Who am I to say -- and who is any one person to say -- that those cars aren't sports cars?

Ultimately the market defines that kind of thing. That's part and parcel of the genius of Porsche's place in the realm of auto manufacturing: it has the cache to define anything as a sports car as long as it meets the definition of that in the consciousness of the market.

And, so, it has. Your definition, my definition, and anyone else's definition don't mean squat.
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      11-30-2018, 02:29 PM   #29
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I'd say the GTR is the only Merc that's a legitimate threat to steal p-car buyers so no, Mercedes doesn't have their foot on Porsche's neck. Every other model likely doesn't have much cross shopping going on (ignoring the SUV segment).

I also agree that Porsche 911 pricing, model range complexity are an issue. I'd never consider a base or even S because it just doesn't make sense (to me) for what you get.

But the superior models (GTS, GT3, heck even the T) are close enough in price to an S that if you're going to do it, you may as well get the proper car. In this price range you should be able to afford the difference. Not throwing the Turbo into the mix because IMO pricing vs. depreciation is bonkers on those (I'd take a used one though).

I actually think the Cayman line gives a much better value and I'd more likely jump into those, especially a GTS or GT4 (at a lower price) before jumping into a base or S 911.
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      11-30-2018, 02:33 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I don’t understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins.
Tell me again why the 911 RSR is mid-engined?
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      11-30-2018, 02:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I can't tell you how vehemently I disagree with this viewpoint, and here's why: What's the definition of a sports car? Simply put, it's changed to include SUVs and large sedans in the eyes of many. Porsche did what it had to do by both seeing that trend coming and investing in it far, far before the definition actually started changing in the mainstream.
I stopped reading after this. Sports cars now include SUVs and large sedans? What's next, a minivan?
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      11-30-2018, 03:00 PM   #32
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that 'foot on neck' thing is likely meant to be provocative. if OP truly believes that, then

i like Mercedes. was really disappointed when the DC merger essentially fucked up a hundred years of history and quality. but they've bounced back. and yeah, that AMG-GTR looks like a worthy competitor even if it has the silhouette of an upside down penis. the E63S and the GT sedan or whatever is also a worthy Panamera competitor, so there's a lot to like there.

the main thing i dislike about them is their BMW-like approach of having 200 different pointless models. and the astronomical depreciation of their AMG's.

to the side conversation of "sportscar manufacturers", i think we're probably safe to call the most successful motorsport company of all time a "sportscar manufacturer", no? i take the point that we now have Macans and Cayennes, but those are made so that they can also make GT3's and GT2's. like how Enzo only sold road cars to finance his F1 campaigns...
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      11-30-2018, 03:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I don't understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins.
Tell me again why the 911 RSR is mid-engined?
Aerodynamics. Changes to the rules for diffusers and splitters prevented them from taking full advantage with the engine in the way. So you could argue that rule changes forced their hand.
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      11-30-2018, 03:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Aerodynamics. Changes to the rules for diffusers and splitters prevented them from taking full advantage with the engine in the way. So you could argue that rule changes forced their hand.
Here's the full story:

Quote:
Purists may argue it is no longer a true 911, but the change was deemed essential to staying competitive in a fiercely contested racing class occupied by front- and mid- engine competitors like the Corvette C7.R, Aston Martin Vantage GTE, Ford GT, and Ferrari 488 GTE. Porsche Motorsport engineers felt the RSR was at a disadvantage to cars whose engine positions allowed them to better optimize their aerodynamic balance to international GTE class rules.

With that in mind, the primary goal of moving the RSR’s engine was to improve rear downforce and subsequently reduce rear-tire wear over the course of a driving stint. Repositioning the 4.0-liter naturally aspirated flat-six ahead of the rear axle allowed use of a larger rear diffuser, which runs from the rear axle to the back of the car, like in all other cars in the class. Previously, the engine’s location prevented this, requiring use of a smaller, less effective diffuser.

The additional rear downforce is complemented by an improvement in mass centralization. Shifting the engine forward in the chassis allowed engineers to transfer weight at the front of the car toward the center (including where series-mandated ballast is mounted). While this combined effort hasn’t greatly affected the car’s front-to-rear weight distribution (it only changes one to two percent, depending on ballast, compared with the old car), moving weight away from the ends and toward the car’s center has had a noticeable effect on how it works.
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      11-30-2018, 03:51 PM   #35
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It's a difference, yes. But it's not like a 911 isn't wildly capable. You make it sound like Macca and others have caught up, but they really haven't, at least when you compare equal power to weight ratios. And Fezza is out to lunch with on track performance.
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      11-30-2018, 03:52 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
I stopped reading after this. Sports cars now include SUVs and large sedans? What's next, a minivan?
I'm sorry you're not interested in what 'the eyes of many' are. Considering that you live in a democratic, (relatively) free-market country, you should.

Learn sentence comprehension. It comes in handy.

:: rolls eyes ::
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      11-30-2018, 04:00 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I'm sorry you're not interested in what 'the eyes of many' are.
That is in your eyes in the eyes of many

But if we look at say, wikipedia, a free platform that is more or less open to be changed by anyone with reasonable amount of knowledge (so if an opinion were to be given to something, its probably very close to the 'general opinion'), they have an interesting page on what defines a sportscar, but there isnt anyting in there what remotely even looks like a macan or cayenne and the definition or traits that it gives to a sportscar ticks virtually none of the macan or cayenne's physical parameters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car
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      11-30-2018, 04:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
Except porsche lives of sales of SUV's that are based on volkswagen platforms and Ferrari only makes sportscars/supercars/gt's based on their own developed platforms (although a ferrari SUV will probably come some day....)
Porsche is nowadays more a luxury platform rebrander than a sportscar company as the sales of 911's (and boxsters / 918 etc) are nothing compared to the amount of Macan's, Cayennes and panameras it produces.
Porsche makes its 911 as a style icon referring to succesful days gone by, but its current bread and butter are VAG platform based luxury suv's and saloons.
Its not a sportscar company anymore imho. Imho porsche is nowadays more akin to Audi than to Ferrari regardless how good a car the 911 is.
Thats why I have a 993
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      11-30-2018, 04:28 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuidoK View Post
That is in your eyes in the eyes of many

But if we look at say, wikipedia, a free platform that is more or less open to be changed by anyone with reasonable amount of knowledge (so if an opinion were to be given to something, its probably very close to the 'general opinion'), they have an interesting page on what defines a sportscar, but there isnt anyting in there what remotely even looks like a macan or cayenne and the definition or traits that it gives to a sportscar ticks virtually none of the macan or cayenne's physical parameters
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_car
Dude, have you ever heard of playing devil's advocate? I do it for a living.

I'm very, very familiar with what the 'traditional' definition of sports car is. Thing is, many people don't subscribe to that definition -- including Porsche.

Disagree with that all you want. It's reality. I'm just pointing reality out for those who aren't considering it -- something I also do for a living.

Oh, and by the way: Those of us who do this kind of thing for a living learn very quickly that Wikipedia is jam-packed with misinformation and edited content. It's not reliable. Crowdsourcing'll do that to a reference.
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      11-30-2018, 04:29 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Thats why I have a 993
Yeah, 993 is probably porsche at its finest in retrospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Dude, have you ever heard of playing devil's advocate? I do it for a living.
No, never ever heard of it. But then again I don't do that for a living
The group you're playing devil's advocate for certainly isnt here on this forum....apparently....
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      11-30-2018, 04:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Tell me again why the 911 RSR is mid-engined?
I think there are a couple things at the core. Most other cars were racing on waivers and given the new rules moving the 911 to mid engine would allow them to produce lmp1 levels of downforce with the new aero they could employ.

Last edited by Funf6cyl; 11-30-2018 at 04:42 PM..
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      11-30-2018, 04:54 PM   #42
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Its not a sportscar company anymore imho. Imho porsche is nowadays more akin to Audi than to Ferrari regardless how good a car the 911 is.[/QUOTE]

But it has a very long history of being just a sports car company unlike just about every other car builder on the planet. And yes Porsche is a luxury brand but the things are wicked fast around the ring.

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      11-30-2018, 05:09 PM   #43
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Sure. I dont think anyone doubts the history of porsche and its merits, just as no one doubts Porsches ability to make an epic sportscar today.
But the part of porsche that makes those cars is not the main part nowadays. Certainly not when looking at the sales numbers. SUV's and saloons are its bread and butter today, and the sportscars are made to give the brand a certain image (or to keep that image at least). Without the SUV's Porsche would be bankrupt years ago, so making the sportscars is not really a direct profitable venture. But it aids of course in the sell of SUV's. It all fits in the Porsche marketing strategy (which is brilliant). Make an epic sportscar line -> buy in cheap suv platforms -> copy style icon details from the sportscars onto the SUV's -> sell the SUV's for a premium.
Brilliant

So probably the 911 and 718 buyers are the ones that make the best deal when buying a Porsche. Certainly the 911 is I think leader in its segment, which is apparently produced at a loss (or at least not as profitably as it needs to be to keep an entire brand in the market; it might not be a direct loss). Competing cars from solely sportscars manufacturers are usually far more expensive (ferrari, mclaren), and other competing cars come as top models from even more generic/less luxury/less performance orientated brands (like the Merc. AMG GT, but also corvette, audi R8 etc)
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Last edited by GuidoK; 11-30-2018 at 05:17 PM..
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      11-30-2018, 05:15 PM   #44
SunnyD
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I'd say Lamborghini is taking it to Porsche more so than Mercedes (see Performante, SVJ, etc.).
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