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      11-30-2018, 08:36 AM   #1
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Mercedes vs Porsche

Is there any thread here yet about how Mercedes has it's foot on Porsche neck? The new AMG GT R Pro directly aimed possibly at the 911 GT3 maybe GT2. Then the 4 door coupe GT setting fattest Nurburgring Times aimed at the Panamera.
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      11-30-2018, 08:43 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
Is there any thread here yet about how Mercedes has it's foot on Porsche neck? The new AMG GT R Pro directly aimed possibly at the 911 GT3 maybe GT2. Then the 4 door coupe GT setting fattest Nurburgring Times aimed at the Panamera.
The problem with Porsche is pricing. The cars fall into this 'no mans land' on the financial spectrum. Most of the public views the 911 (non GT cars) as a 'luxury sports car', not an exotic. Porsche then prices the cars 50-100% higher than the other cars the bulk of the public views as competitors.

Realistically - there is not true competitor to the 911, neither in price or driving pleasure. But, for around half the cost of a fully loaded 911, someone can buy a car that delivers 80-90% of what the Porsche does. On that same note, when comparing the GT cars, for the same general price points, someone can purchase a true exotic. Neither the exotic or the GT car is going to be driven very often by the majority of buyers, so reliability doesn't really factor in.

Of course, my opinion probably doesn't hold much water, since Porsche continues to sell like wildfire and commands well over MSRP on the GT cars. I myself, however, just cannot justify $120,000-$140,000 for a moderately equipped 911 when I can get an AMG or an M car for far less.

Just my 2 cents. End result? I don't think Porsche gives a flying rats ass about the AMG GT.
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      11-30-2018, 08:53 AM   #3
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Mercedes has it's foot on Porsche neck?

I don't think that's true at all.

I don't think Porsche gives a flying rats ass about the AMG GT.

Yup.
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      11-30-2018, 08:55 AM   #4
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My view of Porsche is similar to Ferrari, they both are basically sports car companies. Everyone else (Exotic/Supercars exempted) are car builders with a division that builds sports cars. This to me makes brands like Porsche something special. I really like the AMG GT, it's a great looking car and I'd love some seat time in one. But I've landed on another Porsche, albeit not one of the new ones which are off the charts in performance compared to what i own.
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      11-30-2018, 08:56 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
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Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
Is there any thread here yet about how Mercedes has it's foot on Porsche neck? The new AMG GT R Pro directly aimed possibly at the 911 GT3 maybe GT2. Then the 4 door coupe GT setting fattest Nurburgring Times aimed at the Panamera.
The problem with Porsche is pricing. The cars fall into this 'no mans land' on the financial spectrum. Most of the public views the 911 (non GT cars) as a 'luxury sports car', not an exotic. Porsche then prices the cars 50-100% higher than the other cars the bulk of the public views as competitors.

Realistically - there is not true competitor to the 911, neither in price or driving pleasure. But, for around half the cost of a fully loaded 911, someone can buy a car that delivers 80-90% of what the Porsche does. On that same note, when comparing the GT cars, for the same general price points, someone can purchase a true exotic. Neither the exotic or the GT car is going to be driven very often by the majority of buyers, so reliability doesn't really factor in.

Of course, my opinion probably doesn't hold much water, since Porsche continues to sell like wildfire and commands well over MSRP on the GT cars. I myself, however, just cannot justify $120,000 for a moderately equipped 911 when I can get an AMG or an M car for far less.

Just my 2 cents. End result? I don't think Porsche gives a flying rats ass about the AMG GT.
I think in due time someone could possibly knock Porsche off that driving pleasure throne. Where Porsche excels over other brands is that they don't revolutionize their cars, they just make the existing one better. If Merc takes upon this philosophy of "Why change something if it already works" on their GT, I think they can come really close if not give Porsche a run for their money.

Regarding pricing, I don't think too many people would care simply because it's still a Porsche at the end of the day. But when it comes to specifications and top speed, Tesla is probably going to beat them (at least 0-60 for now) in most aspects all the time at a way lower price. I doubt this new Taycan Porsche has coming would give the Model S true competition.
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      11-30-2018, 09:32 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
The problem with Porsche is pricing.
Not just pricing, it's trying to keep the inferior rear-engine chassis relevant against superior chassis. It's possible to make it faster with more engineering and $$$ put in to it relatively, but every time they set a record, it becomes easier for the better chassis cars to break it and subsequently harder for Porsche to get back on top each time.

Having enough $$$ for this outlandish R&D cost is probably one huge reason why their pricing is set up the way it is. Most cars at P cost 1.5xbase price with any reasonable options added.
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      11-30-2018, 09:53 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Not just pricing, it's trying to keep the inferior rear-engine chassis relevant against superior chassis. It's possible to make it faster with more engineering and $$$ put in to it relatively, but every time they set a record, it becomes easier for the better chassis cars to break it and subsequently harder for Porsche to get back on top each time.

Having enough $$$ for this outlandish R&D cost is probably one huge reason why their pricing is set up the way it is. Most cars at P cost 1.5xbase price with any reasonable options added.

Yes! And I think that is the rub for me. I love the 991, really do. But to me, and I think many others, the price point just doesn't work. Let's face it, while there are plenty of people who drive a Porsche for what it really is, the vast majority are doctors and business execs who simply drive it back and forth to work when the weather is nice.

When one compares a moderately equipped base 911 at $120,000 to an M4 or C63 AMG for nearly half of that, the decision gets difficult. Of course the 911 is a better sports car, but for many buyers, they just cannot justify the premium.

Same goes for the GT cars. For the price of a nicely equipped GT3 or a base GT3 RS, someone can buy a McLaren 570S. This now puts the GT3 into true exotic care territory.
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      11-30-2018, 10:17 AM   #8
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Porsche does not care about MB and does not need to. The AMG GT, the Mclaren sport series, the Aston Vandage all went squarely at the 911 and all fail to deliver despite more hp, newer, etc.
Porsche make the best cars in the world IMO (hands down) and best cars to drive - and they’re reliable and built well, which I’d not dare say of Mclaren or many other exotics. Despite this whole “built wrong” thing, it must really suck to have a GT3 RS beating just about everything under the sun at the Ring with the engine in the “wrong place” and a measly 500 hp and very low torque numbers.
The 992 is going to reset the bar higher than the 991 did (and still owns given the current GT cars are still on top of the world).
If Porsche does head down the path of a 960 (400k mid engined 918 type car)...then it’s really just that much harder for those who try to compete with them.
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      11-30-2018, 10:21 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Not just pricing, it's trying to keep the inferior rear-engine chassis relevant against superior chassis. It's possible to make it faster with more engineering and $$$ put in to it relatively, but every time they set a record, it becomes easier for the better chassis cars to break it and subsequently harder for Porsche to get back on top each time.

Having enough $$$ for this outlandish R&D cost is probably one huge reason why their pricing is set up the way it is. Most cars at P cost 1.5xbase price with any reasonable options added.
I don’t understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins. What “better chassis” cars with the same hp and weight can even come close to that? The ACR can’t beat it with much more power, much more downforce, stickier tires and lower weight. The 488 can’t touch it. Hell, Mclaren couldn’t lap in under 7 mins with a 3000 lb mid engines 1000 hp hypercar a nd Porsche did it with more weight, far less hp and torque and less downforce to boot and less sticky tires. The only company who can really beat Porsche is Porsche.
What people tend to forget is that every car has inherent pros and cons, the 911 while sitting still may look wrong, while driving it is more balanced, better braking, better in so many ways. That’s part of why they are simply so hard to beat and while doing so with less hp and continue to be the bar to which all cars are judged and the one car that for decades everyone else has tried to beat and always falls short.
I’m a huge 911 fan and have been sold since my first drive. I love the 911 I own, but also my 718 GTS and Macan GTS.

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      11-30-2018, 10:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I don’t understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins. What “better chassis” cars with the same hp and weight can even come close to that? The ACR can’t beat it with much more power, much more downforce, stickier tires and lower weight. The 488 can’t touch it. Hell, Mclaren couldn’t lap in under 7 mins with a 3000 lb mid engines 1000 hp hypercat and Porsche did it with more weight, far less hp and torque and less downforce to boot and less sticky tires. The only company who can really beat Porsche is Porsche.
What people tend to forget is that every car has inherent pros and cons, the 911 while sitting still may look wrong, while driving it is more balanced, better braking, better in so many ways. That’s part of why they are simply so hard to beat and while doing so with less hp and continue to be the bar to which all cars are judged and the one car that for decades everyone else has tried to beat and always falls short.

Calm down there, fanboy, lol.

Seriously though - how many new Porsche owners spend any time regularly at the ring? Two, maybe three?

I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand, save maybe the Mazda Miata - but even with that, I would imagine that the total is far less than 10%.

I've driven many Porsche's for long periods of time, including a 991 Turbo S. The cars are fantastic, but I enjoyed the 458 Italia much more. It isn't always about speed and handling. There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.

Porsche builds great cars - but the best in the world? hmmmm....
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      11-30-2018, 10:33 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I don’t understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins. What “better chassis” cars with the same hp and weight can even come close to that? The ACR can’t beat it with much more power, much more downforce, stickier tires and lower weight. The 488 can’t touch it. Hell, Mclaren couldn’t lap in under 7 mins with a 3000 lb mid engines 1000 hp hypercar a nd Porsche did it with more weight, far less hp and torque and less downforce to boot and less sticky tires. The only company who can really beat Porsche is Porsche.
What people tend to forget is that every car has inherent pros and cons, the 911 while sitting still may look wrong, while driving it is more balanced, better braking, better in so many ways. That’s part of why they are simply so hard to beat and while doing so with less hp and continue to be the bar to which all cars are judged and the one car that for decades everyone else has tried to beat and always falls short.
I’m a huge 911 fan and have been sold since my first drive. I love the 911 I own, but also my 718 GTS and Macan GTS.
If the design were wrong, it would have been defeated long ago. Love my 718 Base Boxster too. I'd get even a base Carrera if it made sense money wise for me. I guess that's why I have a Corvette and a 718 instead lol.
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      11-30-2018, 10:35 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
I think in due time someone could possibly knock Porsche off that driving pleasure throne. Where Porsche excels over other brands is that they don't revolutionize their cars, they just make the existing one better. If Merc takes upon this philosophy of "Why change something if it already works" on their GT, I think they can come really close if not give Porsche a run for their money.

Regarding pricing, I don't think too many people would care simply because it's still a Porsche at the end of the day. But when it comes to specifications and top speed, Tesla is probably going to beat them (at least 0-60 for now) in most aspects all the time at a way lower price. I doubt this new Taycan Porsche has coming would give the Model S true competition.
I agree, I like that Porsche sticks with a theme for both the exterior and interior. The 'cute front' has grown on me to be a timeless shape and I love their interiors and how they still use an analogue tach and stick with high quality interiors throughout. I have to give BMW props, they seem to stick with a pretty common exterior theme, I was disappointed that the new BMWs changed the interior styling. I liked the previous generation interior, it was simple and high quality.

I think Mercedes has a flashy interior but I think with time it will look tachy and doesn't appear as high quality as the Porsche. As for Audi, making the entire gauge cluster electronic won't age well.

It seems overall, that car companies are trying too hard to change interiors/exteriors to sell cars when they can do what Porsche does and just refine them and make them more reliable. That is one thing Porsche has over other sports cars/exotics; while not fault free they are relatively trouble free and they can be used year round.
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      11-30-2018, 10:41 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
I agree, I like that Porsche sticks with a theme for both the exterior and interior. The 'cute front' has grown on me to be a timeless shape and I love their interiors and how they still use an analogue tach and stick with high quality interiors throughout. I have to give BMW props, they seem to stick with a pretty common exterior theme, I was disappointed that the new BMWs changed the interior styling. I liked the previous generation interior, it was simple and high quality.

I think Mercedes has a flashy interior but I think with time it will look tachy and doesn't appear as high quality as the Porsche. As for Audi, making the entire gauge cluster electronic won't age well.

It seems overall, that car companies are trying too hard to change interiors/exteriors to sell cars when they can do what Porsche does and just refine them and make them more reliable. That is one thing Porsche has over other sports cars/exotics; while not fault free they are relatively trouble free and they can be used year round.
I do think car manufacturers are desperately trying to turn cars into iPhones where you replace your old one with the new one. There is no ability (very limited) to retrofit new into old, or even if a digital dash overlay is provided, they won't allow an older model to update etc. I don't have a problem with that if people want to pay, but it is concerning if the cars aren't 100% recyclable.
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      11-30-2018, 10:44 AM   #14
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I do think car manufacturers are desperately trying to turn cars into iPhones where you replace your old one with the new one. There is no ability (very limited) to retrofit new into old, or even if a digital dash overlay is provided, they won't allow an older model to update etc. I don't have a problem with that if people want to pay, but it is concerning if the cars aren't 100% recyclable.
Wouldn't be surprised a max life spam of a 5-6 year loan on purchased cars. Leasing is already setup as such.
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      11-30-2018, 10:52 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecheng77 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by am3r1ka View Post
I think in due time someone could possibly knock Porsche off that driving pleasure throne. Where Porsche excels over other brands is that they don't revolutionize their cars, they just make the existing one better. If Merc takes upon this philosophy of "Why change something if it already works" on their GT, I think they can come really close if not give Porsche a run for their money.

Regarding pricing, I don't think too many people would care simply because it's still a Porsche at the end of the day. But when it comes to specifications and top speed, Tesla is probably going to beat them (at least 0-60 for now) in most aspects all the time at a way lower price. I doubt this new Taycan Porsche has coming would give the Model S true competition.
I agree, I like that Porsche sticks with a theme for both the exterior and interior. The 'cute front' has grown on me to be a timeless shape and I love their interiors and how they still use an analogue tach and stick with high quality interiors throughout. I have to give BMW props, they seem to stick with a pretty common exterior theme, I was disappointed that the new BMWs changed the interior styling. I liked the previous generation interior, it was simple and high quality.

I think Mercedes has a flashy interior but I think with time it will look tachy and doesn't appear as high quality as the Porsche. As for Audi, making the entire gauge cluster electronic won't age well.

It seems overall, that car companies are trying too hard to change interiors/exteriors to sell cars when they can do what Porsche does and just refine them and make them more reliable. That is one thing Porsche has over other sports cars/exotics; while not fault free they are relatively trouble free and they can be used year round.
And I think they extend that ideology with tuning their chassis and engines and other components to get it's peak performance out of it. I understand others arguments about Porsche setting the benchmark, but if Merc, BMW, & Audi found their right formula on the perfect model, Porsche would have real competition on their hands.

I'm a BMW fanboy but Merc has the chance to do just that with their GT models if they follow Porsche ways.

Agree on the diluting of BMW aesthetics. It seems their drifting away slowly more and more every year trying to gear more towards their luxury demographics than their true roots.
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      11-30-2018, 11:09 AM   #16
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My view of Porsche is similar to Ferrari, they both are basically sports car companies.
Except porsche lives of sales of SUV's that are based on volkswagen platforms and Ferrari only makes sportscars/supercars/gt's based on their own developed platforms (although a ferrari SUV will probably come some day....)
Porsche is nowadays more a luxury platform rebrander than a sportscar company as the sales of 911's (and boxsters / 918 etc) are nothing compared to the amount of Macan's, Cayennes and panameras it produces.
Porsche makes its 911 as a style icon referring to succesful days gone by, but its current bread and butter are VAG platform based luxury suv's and saloons.
Its not a sportscar company anymore imho. Imho porsche is nowadays more akin to Audi than to Ferrari regardless how good a car the 911 is.
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      11-30-2018, 11:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Funf6cyl View Post
I don't understand your view. Show me another 3200 lbs car with 500 hp that can lap the Ring in under 7 mins. What "better chassis" cars with the same hp and weight can even come close to that? The ACR can't beat it with much more power, much more downforce, stickier tires and lower weight. The 488 can't touch it. Hell, Mclaren couldn't lap in under 7 mins with a 3000 lb mid engines 1000 hp hypercat and Porsche did it with more weight, far less hp and torque and less downforce to boot and less sticky tires. The only company who can really beat Porsche is Porsche.
What people tend to forget is that every car has inherent pros and cons, the 911 while sitting still may look wrong, while driving it is more balanced, better braking, better in so many ways. That's part of why they are simply so hard to beat and while doing so with less hp and continue to be the bar to which all cars are judged and the one car that for decades everyone else has tried to beat and always falls short.

Calm down there, fanboy, lol.

Seriously though - how many new Porsche owners spend any time regularly at the ring? Two, maybe three?

I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand, save maybe the Mazda Miata - but even with that, I would imagine that the total is far less than 10%.

I've driven many Porsche's for long periods of time, including a 991 Turbo S. The cars are fantastic, but I enjoyed the 458 Italia much more. It isn't always about speed and handling. There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.

Porsche builds great cars - but the best in the world? hmmmm....
What the hell?

http://www.nuerburgring.de/en/fans-i...e/webcams.html

Porsches are tracked everywhere very frequently. And of course they're all over the Ring.

Okay, your point was actually regular visitors to the Ring, but yes, there are plenty of them, not two.

I rented a Cayman for one of my visits and there were every era and model at every turn.

Having lived near Motor Sports Ranch and Laguna Seca, I've never been to an event that Porsches didn't outnumber any other brand, even on days for other brands.

Say what you will about Porsche, even JNB's inane swipes at the comically capable rear engine design, but faulting owners for not tracking is sort of like saying a tuned F80 isn't faster than the Saturn V.

And no, no one in Stuttgart cares about the AMG.
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      11-30-2018, 11:27 AM   #18
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Biggest problem with Porsche? They don’t seem to be cooperating with Santa on my wish list...

I was a good boy, I swear!
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      11-30-2018, 11:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usshelena725 View Post
Calm down there, fanboy, lol.

Seriously though - how many new Porsche owners spend any time regularly at the ring? Two, maybe three?

I would venture to say that Porsche probably has a higher percentage of owners that actually track their car on occasion than any other brand, save maybe the Mazda Miata - but even with that, I would imagine that the total is far less than 10%.

I've driven many Porsche's for long periods of time, including a 991 Turbo S. The cars are fantastic, but I enjoyed the 458 Italia much more. It isn't always about speed and handling. There is also soul - something the new 911's don't offer.

Porsche builds great cars - but the best in the world? hmmmm....
Plenty of people track Porsches. I do when I have time. Plus most of my friends who own them do so as well and often are the most familiar to see at the track. At the Rkng, the 911 is the most common car to see there by far.
I’ve driven the 458 on various occassions - have a friend who owned a coupe and has a Spyder. I’ll take a GT3 over one any day of the week - and that same friend would agree he’d keep his GT3 too (991) if he had to choose. There is far more soul to a 911 of you ask me - it’s the intangibles Porsche has that set it apart as special.
Why not also look to see that EVO chose the 997.2 GT3 RS as Car of the Year over the 458 as well because it was a more balanced car that was overall a better driver’s car - which is it. They also chose the 991 GT3 over the F12, and the GT4 and GT3 RS over the 488. Ferrari makes good cars if you like attention, but otherwise, I’ll take a Porsche for the dynamics, sound, and for the much better overall cohesive package.

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      11-30-2018, 11:48 AM   #20
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Except porsche lives of sales of SUV's that are based on volkswagen platforms and Ferrari only makes sportscars/supercars/gt's based on their own developed platforms (although a ferrari SUV will probably come some day....)
Porsche is nowadays more a luxury platform rebrander than a sportscar company as the sales of 911's (and boxsters / 918 etc) are nothing compared to the amount of Macan's, Cayennes and panameras it produces.
Porsche makes its 911 as a style icon referring to succesful days gone by, but its current bread and butter are VAG platform based luxury suv's and saloons.
Its not a sportscar company anymore imho. Imho porsche is nowadays more akin to Audi than to Ferrari regardless how good a car the 911 is.
I can't tell you how vehemently I disagree with this viewpoint, and here's why: What's the definition of a sports car? Simply put, it's changed to include SUVs and large sedans in the eyes of many. Porsche did what it had to do by both seeing that trend coming and investing in it far, far before the definition actually started changing in the mainstream.

It's proven that the majority of new Porsche buyers today in the U.S. don't even realize that Porsche makes 'sports cars' like the 911. Conversely, I'd be willing to put money on the fact that the majority of people who are aware of Ferrari as a maker of exotic sports cars don't realize that it's made a hybrid ... or that Lamborghini makes (and used to make) an SUV. Or that Mercedes makes the GT. Or that Audi makes the R8. Or that Honda makes the NSX. Or that Jaguar makes an SUV and an EV. And so on.

Porsche has a long, long history of pushing the envelope of the definition of a sports car. Just because it has resources to use a parent company's R&D and platforms doesn't mean squat if the product performs like a 'traditional' sports car might. Besides, very, very little of the 911 (991, 992, whatever) -- much less the Boxster/Cayman, which everyone in this thread has conveniently forgotten about to this point -- is shared with any other VW AG product.

As for the OP's original question: I agree with some other posters that Porsche doesn't give a damn about what Merc builds unless it competes directly with something Porsche builds. The GT doesn't compete with the current 991; the coming 992 will be closer, but they are still two cars that approach high performance two different ways, IMHO. One who appreciates the way that a GT does it won't likely appreciate how a 992 will do it, and vice versa.
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      11-30-2018, 12:10 PM   #21
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      11-30-2018, 12:17 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
I can't tell you how vehemently I disagree with this viewpoint, and here's why: What's the definition of a sports car? Simply put, it's changed to include SUVs and large sedans in the eyes of many.
You can agree or disagree, but imho an SUV is not a sportscar.
And certainly not if its an SUV based on a VAG platform.

But yeah, sportscar is not a legal defined type or brand or whatever, so it can also include a ford f150 pickup or a UPS delivery van. All according to ones personal opinion.
However whats not an opinion but a FACT is that the vast majority of the porsche cars sold today use a rebranded volkswagen or audi platform. And that is a HUGE difference with Ferrari, and that was the key point of my post. Comparing porsche as a brand to ferrari is completely silly nowadays. Maybe that will change when or if Ferrari sells out and also starts rebranding SUV's, and equip them with 4 cyl engines or diesel engines, like porsche started 15 years ago, but that's not happening right now.

And that what "the majority of new Porsche buyers today in the U.S. don't even realize".....Thats hitting the nail twice on the head: 1: porsche buyers, and 2: the US

And that you say:
Quote:
Besides, very, very little of the 911 (991, 992, whatever) -- much less the Boxster/Cayman, which everyone in this thread has conveniently forgotten about to this point -- is shared with any other VW AG product.
, which is basically a recap of my statement also underlines what the majority of their products are. The 911 and 718 are a small portion of their total sales. In just the US the macan easily outsells both 911 and 718 together (with 150% or so ). So yes, a small (or at least minor) portion of the products that porsche sells are sportscars (and only a small portion of that overlaps with the ferrari key market), and that portion acts as a style icon for the brand in order to sell their mainstream product, which are VAG platform based suv's

In that scope Ferrari is a totally different manufacturer with completely different products. Only a very small portion of the porsche products overlaps the ferrari target buyer
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