[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

They did the same with Porsche though.

Guess Porsche is a sell out to you as well.

And you posted all through that thread so you are well aware.

You mean the thread where I pointed out that Porsche has no EV on the market? LOL. BMW and Porsche collaborated on a EV charger along with Siemens and others. Ford and GM co-developed their latest 10-speed automatic trans, so what. BMW and Toyota co-developed an entire automotive vehicle.

But yeah, that's the same...

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

You mean the thread where I pointed out that Porsche has no EV on the market? LOL. BMW and Porsche collaborated on a EV charger along with Siemens and others. Ford and GM co-developed their latest 10-speed automatic trans, so what. BMW and Toyota co-developed an entire automotive vehicle.

But yeah, that's the same...

According to you "That's how it starts"

[Cortexiphan]

Originally Posted by Sportstick

I realize I'm asking for it, but what species would I be in that case?

I don't know. Some endangered species.
My E92 M3 was manual, and I like manuals as well. (Especially in right conditions, like an open parkway)

But I understand the shift away from manuals, and BMW are actually the last manufacturer that is holding on to manual in their class, with at least some of their models., even though that doesn't make any financial sense.

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by Cortexiphan

I don't know. Some endangered species.

Probably so....I still write in cursive.

Agree about your financial analysis, and I've written overly long and wordy explanations about the business case issues in other threads. I used to be an automotive product planner for another car company.

[SmoothStyle1]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I agree about the F30. I was at my dealer I bought my E90 from sometime back in the fall of 2013. My sales rep was still there and suggested I take out an F30 320i with a sport package (he was trying to dump it for cheap). What a terrible car. The brakes and steering were not sourced from BMW I thought. I took it on some great country roads. You couldn't place the car at an apex to save your life. And for BMW to just de-tune the N20 down to 181 HP, was a poor choice by BMW. What a downgrade from the E90.

I get it that the market now doesn't really care about sports sedans, but this is a BMW 3-series and BMWs in the US have never been inexpensive; BMW should foot the bill to give us a choice of a properly-sorted manual transmission in the non-M version of the G20. GM and Ford have the balls to keep the Camaro and Mustang fitted with a V8 and manual transmission as keen to those cars legacies. BMW should do the same for the 3-series.

Depends on which F30. I have had two E90s and now own a 340i F30, which is MUCH better than the two 335i versions of the E90 I had.

The B58 engine with a 6-sp manual transmission is a match made in heaven.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by SmoothStyle1

Depends on which F30. I have had two E90s and now own a 340i F30, which is MUCH better than the two 335i versions of the E90 I had.

The B58 engine with a 6-sp manual transmission is a match made in heaven.

Bingo!
Just picked one of the last 2018 6MT 340i M-sport on the east coast. A little more $ and equipment than I wanted/needed but this is the last hurrah before I get an electrical toaster oven
Brilliant sports sedan by the way, not the same 335i I drove before. And that 320HP is so underrated it's not even funny.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by MT4life

Bingo!
Just picked one of the last 2018 6MT 340i M-sport on the east coast. A little more $ and equipment than I wanted/needed but this is the last hurrah before I get an electrical toaster oven
Brilliant sports sedan by the way, not the same 335i I drove before. And that 320HP is so underrated it's not even funny.

Drives: 2018 340i  - The last 6MT 3-er

That's not true though... Some variants are available with a manual in Europe, and afaik the coming M3 is all but confirmed to offer a manual as well.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by KTN

Drives: 2018 340i  - The last 6MT 3-er

That's not true though... Some variants are available with a manual in Europe, and afaik the coming M3 is all but confirmed to offer a manual as well.

It'll be justified by saying a four-cylinder BMW isn't a real BMW, it's made by Wartburg or something, BMW has no history of four-pot engines as long as you ignore the M10-powered 1,500bhp Brabham BMWs, the entire Neue Klasse, the 2002/tii, the Turbo, the original M3s, the 320is, the 318is in various forms, and the 3 million 320ds they've made in the last 21 years for real-world poor people ))

[Sportstick]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

It'll be justified by saying a four-cylinder BMW isn't a real BMW, it's made by Wartburg or something, BMW has no history of four-pot engines as long as you ignore the M10-powered 1,500bhp Brabham BMWs, the entire Neue Klasse, the 2002/tii, the Turbo, the original M3s, the 320is, the 318is in various forms, and the 3 million 320ds they've made in the last 21 years for real-world poor people ))

And....

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by KTN

Drives: 2018 340i  - The last 6MT 3-er

That's not true though... Some variants are available with a manual in Europe, and afaik the coming M3 is all but confirmed to offer a manual as well.

It's the last 3 series with manual transmission in USA. I don't live in Europe it's irrelevant to me what's available outside of USA. M3 is not a 3-er and it's not something I was after anyway. I could get a 18-24 month old M3 for the same $ but again it's not for me.

Anyway I'm happy as a clam and will wait a few years to see if BMW comes to its senses and make another 340 with 6MT.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by MT4life

It's the last 3 series with manual transmission in USA. I don't live in Europe it's irrelevant to me what's available outside of USA. M3 is not a 3-er and it's not something I was after anyway. I could get a 18-24 month old M3 for the same $ but again it's not for me.

Anyway I'm happy as a clam and will wait a few years to see if BMW comes to its senses and make another 340 with 6MT.

Ok, well I mean if we're going around forming rules just to justify our statement... oookay. It still isn't the last MT 3-series, which is what you're saying, no matter where you live. But whatever makes you feel better.

I'll take note that the M3 isn't a 3-series car.
I guess it's a 4 then... wait.
So I guess it's just an M then... but why the number 3?
Hmm, so many questions.

But at least you laid it out plain that you're right, because you don't care if in reality it's not the last MT 3-series, including that the M3 is not a 3er. Got it. (actually no, I still don't)

I'm happy you're happy. I also agree on the fact the M3 is different (hence the M) in feel to a non-M car, and it's all personal preference, so if you feel the 340i is better for you, all good. But the M3 is still a 3er, so just to be able to say you got the last MT 3er, please don't say it's not.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by MT4life

It's the last 3 series with manual transmission in USA. I don't live in Europe it's irrelevant to me what's available outside of USA.

Fair enough. I mean its still wrong but if you pretend the rest of the world isn't there, including the actual country these cars come from in the first place, then yeah

It is a shame, all three limitations. But then you like lots of power for getting from one stoplight to the next in traffic, and low, low prices - so compromises have to be made!

[captainaudio]

Technology progresses and there are both upsides and downsides to the advances that are made. The classic British Roadsters of 60 years ago may have been very involving and enjoyable and fun to but they were also very primitive and as much as I enjoyed owning them I would not want to have one as my daily driver now. In those days things like power steering and brakes. power seats and windows. climate control (all things that we take for granted today) were looked down upon by "purists" who were in it for the driving experience. Automotive technology has advanced for performance cars and also for the mainstream cars that are looked down upon as "appliances" by many self appointed purists. The reality is that by the standards of 60 years ago even relatively generic family sedans such as the Honda Accord will out accelerate, out brake and out corner many of the performance icons of 50 years ago. A number of yeas ago the 50th anniversary issue of Motor Trend had an article entitled "How Far We've Come". In that article they compared a current Honda Odyssey Minivan (the ultimate "Soccer Mom" vehicle) to the performance icons of 50 years previous and the minivan outperformed them in virtually all categories.

Any car that is driven as a daily driver will be a compromise between comfort and practicality and performance. What I want to avoid is a street car that is too much performance to be usable on the street and not enough performance to be competitive on a track. If I have to compromise I will compromise in the direction comfort, convenience and luxury over raw performance. There is no reason that a car can not have both attributes. Cars like this have been around for years and are referred to as "Grand Touring" or "GT" cars. I find that description fits my BMW M4 and my Jaguar and several other cars perfectly. High performance, fun to drive and comfortable as a daily driver or for a long road trip. As much as I enjoy driving dedicated track cars I certainly would not want to use one to commute to work or make a Costco run. The days when you could drive a car to the track, win a race and then drive the car back home are long gone.

I have cars with a variety of transmissions including MT, DCT and ZF. I enjoy driving all of them and would not consider owning a car that I do not enjoy driving. Even my "Winter Beater" (Porsche Cayenne GTS) is an enjoyable car to drive.

As for MT vs AT (DCT) at this point it is a matter of personal preference. I do not buy into the "MT gives you more control" argument. Modern race cars that race on road courses are almost exclusively paddle shifted and if MTs gave these cars an advantage MTs would be what are used. I enjoy driving MTs and there is a great deal of satisfaction to a well executed heel and toe downshift but in reality however well executed and smooth that downshift may be the blip is at best a really good estimate and will never match the drive shaft and engine speeds with the accuracy of a computer. Of course on many modern MTs the rev matches are automated which to me takes away a lot of the fun of shifting and makes for a "semi-manual" transmission. A number of years ago when I was involved with The Skip Barber Racing School I asked one of the lead instructors (who had recently won the 24 Hours of Daytona) what he thought of the DCT transmission in the E92 M3. His answer was "It shifts better than I can". In reality a modern MT shifts better than anyone can and in manual mode with the paddles you have full control over what gear you are in. In many cases even in full automatic mode on a race track the cars have an uncanny ability to be in the correct gear.

If you are serious about learning car control and high performance driving you will quickly learn that there is a lot more involved than shifting gears.

I will quote the response by the editor of Automobile Magazine in response to a letter in the February 2019 issue titled "The Passion Is Dead" in which the writer of the letter expressed similar views to those expressed by many in this thread.

We will always love manual gearboxes. But in the context of modern hypercars - especially when driving them quickly on tracks or in other suitably controlled environments - you quickly find thoughts of stick shifting vanish when you are trying to catch your breath after accelerating to 60 mph in less than 3 seconds, braking later than you ever imagined possible, and holding on while cornering at more than 1 g. The way these cars achieve performance might be different than in the past, but the rush is the same as always.

All of that being said my MT cars are in storage for the Winter and I can hardly wait for Spring so I can take them out for spirited drives on the great driving roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

Technology progresses and there are both upsides and downsides to the advances that are made. The classic British Roadsters of 60 years ago may have been very involving and enjoyable and fun to but they were also very primitive and as much as I enjoyed owning them I would not want to have one as my daily driver now. In those days things like power steering and brakes. power seats and windows. climate control (all things that we take for granted today) were looked down upon by "purists" who were in it for the driving experience. Automotive technology has advanced for performance cars and also for the mainstream cars that are looked down upon as "appliances" by many self appointed purists. The reality is that by the standards of 60 years ago even relatively generic family sedans such as the Honda Accord will out accelerate, out brake and out corner many of the performance icons of 50 years ago. A number of yeas ago the 50th anniversary issue of Motor Trend had an article entitled "How Far We've Come". In that article they compared a current Honda Odyssey Minivan (the ultimate "Soccer Mom" vehicle) to the performance icons of 50 years previous and the minivan outperformed them in virtually all categories.

Any car that is driven as a daily driver will be a compromise between comfort and practicality and performance. What I want to avoid is a street car that is too much performance to be usable on the street and not enough performance to be competitive on a track. If I have to compromise I will compromise in the direction comfort, convenience and luxury over raw performance. There is no reason that a car can not have both attributes. Cars like this have been around for years and are referred to as "Grand Touring" or "GT" cars. I find that description fits my BMW M4 and my Jaguar and several other cars perfectly. High performance, fun to drive and comfortable as a daily driver or for a long road trip. As much as I enjoy driving dedicated track cars I certainly would not want to use one to commute to work or make a Costco run. The days when you could drive a car to the track, win a race and then drive the car back home are long gone.

I have cars with a variety of transmissions including MT, DCT and ZF. I enjoy driving all of them and would not consider owning a car that I do not enjoy driving. Even my "Winter Beater" (Porsche Cayenne GTS) is an enjoyable car to drive.

As for MT vs AT (DCT) at this point it is a matter of personal preference. I do not buy into the "MT gives you more control" argument. Modern race cars that race on road courses are almost exclusively paddle shifted and if MTs gave these cars an advantage MTs would be what are used. I enjoy driving MTs and there is a great deal of satisfaction to a well executed heel and toe downshift but in reality however well executed and smooth that downshift may be the blip is at best a really good estimate and will never match the drive shaft and engine speeds with the accuracy of a computer. Of course on many modern MTs the rev matches are automated which to me takes away a lot of the fun of shifting and makes for a "semi-manual" transmission. A number of years ago when I was involved with The Skip Barber Racing School I asked one of the lead instructors (who had recently won the 24 Hours of Daytona) what he thought of the DCT transmission in the E92 M3. His answer was "It shifts better than I can". In reality a modern MT shifts better than anyone can and in manual mode with the paddles you have full control over what gear you are in. In many cases even in full automatic mode on a race track the cars have an uncanny ability to be in the correct gear.

If you are serious about learning car control and high performance driving you will quickly learn that there is a lot more involved than shifting gears.

I will quote the response by the editor of Automobile Magazine in response to a letter in the February 2019 issue titled "The Passion Is Dead" in which the writer of the letter expressed similar views to those expressed by many in this thread.

All of that being said my MT cars are in storage for the Winter and I can hardly wait for Spring so I can take them out for spirited drives on the great driving roads in the Northwest Corner of Connecticut.

The classic U.K. Roadster of 60 years ago, whether Triumph, Lotus, Jaguar or whatever were all P.O.S. because the Lucas Electronics were all crap.

Yes, there were other issues, but the Electronics were an absolute cluster f.

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

The classic U.K. Roadster of 60 years ago, whether Triumph, Lotus, Jaguar or whatever were all P.O.S. because the Lucas Electronics were all crap.

Yes, there were other issues, but the Electronics were an absolute cluster f.

I am sure you meant to say the "electrics" not "electronics".

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by 530iDriver

I am sure you meant to say the "electrics" not "electronics".

Anything that dealt with anything electronics.

From gauges, radio, lights and anything in between.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

The classic U.K. Roadster of 60 years ago, whether Triumph, Lotus, Jaguar or whatever were all P.O.S. because the Lucas Electronics were all crap.

Yes, there were other issues, but the Electronics were an absolute cluster f.

I used to have a T Shirt that read:
"Why do the British drink warm beer?
Because they have Lucas refrigerators."

Lucas electrics were certainly notoriously unreliable but the fact remains that during the post war period when "sports cars" were becoming popular the British marques were by far the most popular cars driven by "enthusiasts". With the notable exception of Mercedes the Germans were not much of a factor and as good as the Mercedes sports cars were (Mercedes 300SL, BMW 507) they were unaffordable to most sports car lovers. The Italian marques like Ferrari and Maserati were also very expensive. Fiats were affordable and some Alfa Romeo models were somewhat affordable but most sports car enthusiasts (purists?) of the era drove MGs, Austin Healeys. Jaguars or Triumphs.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I used to have a T Shirt that read:
"Why do the British drink warm beer?
Because they have Lucas refrigerators."

Lucas electrics were certainly notoriously unreliable but the fact remains that during the post war period when "sports cars" were becoming popular the British marques were by far the most popular cars driven by "enthusiasts". With the notable exception of Mercedes the Germans were not much of a factor and as good as the Mercedes sports cars were (Mercedes 300SL, BMW 507) they were unaffordable to most sports car lovers. The Italian marques like Ferrari and Maserati were also very expensive. Fiats were affordable and some Alfa Romeo models were somewhat affordable but most sports car enthusiasts (purists?) of the era drove MGs, Austin Healeys. Jaguars or Triumphs.

I worked in a Rover/Triumph garage in the 1970's, don't remind me...

Remember the 2.5pi engines with the Lucas petrol injection system? I think my workshop foreman (of the time) aged prematurely due to the Lucas P.I. system.

[MT4life]

Originally Posted by KTN

Ok, well I mean if we're going around forming rules just to justify our statement... oookay. It still isn't the last MT 3-series, which is what you're saying, no matter where you live. But whatever makes you feel better.

I'll take note that the M3 isn't a 3-series car.
I guess it's a 4 then... wait.
So I guess it's just an M then... but why the number 3?
Hmm, so many questions.

But at least you laid it out plain that you're right, because you don't care if in reality it's not the last MT 3-series, including that the M3 is not a 3er. Got it. (actually no, I still don't)

I'm happy you're happy. I also agree on the fact the M3 is different (hence the M) in feel to a non-M car, and it's all personal preference, so if you feel the 340i is better for you, all good. But the M3 is still a 3er, so just to be able to say you got the last MT 3er, please don't say it's not.

It's not a 3-er. It's not the same designation F30. It's not on the same list with all other 3s on bmwusa. It's not in the same configurator with all other 3s. It's not a 3 series sedan I don't care how you slice. It might be loosely based on f30 but I read it shares almost nothing with f30. It's like saying Cayenne Turbo is the same thing as Toureg.

So yes, in USA, 2018 3 series sedan is the last 3 series sedan or 3-er with Manual Transmission.

Drove home today from work, smiled the whole time like an idiot - God I missed MT

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by captainaudio

I used to have a T Shirt that read:
"Why do the British drink warm beer?
Because they have Lucas refrigerators."

Lucas electrics were certainly notoriously unreliable but the fact remains that during the post war period when "sports cars" were becoming popular the British marques were by far the most popular cars driven by "enthusiasts". With the notable exception of Mercedes the Germans were not much of a factor and as good as the Mercedes sports cars were (Mercedes 300SL, BMW 507) they were unaffordable to most sports car lovers. The Italian marques like Ferrari and Maserati were also very expensive. Fiats were affordable and some Alfa Romeo models were somewhat affordable but most sports car enthusiasts (purists?) of the era drove MGs, Austin Healeys. Jaguars or Triumphs.

MG. Ugh. Forgot to mention them.

My neighbor had a mid 60s Jag. I asked them how they liked it and they said they wouldn't wish it on their worst enemy.

I had a Lotus...actually 2. Fool me twice....

What POSs.

[captainaudio]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

MG. Ugh. Forgot to mention them.

My neighbor had a mid 60s Jag. I asked them how they liked it and they said they wouldn't wish it on their worst enemy.

I had a Lotus...actually 2. Fool me twice....

What POSs.

I suppose we have gotten somewhat off topic here with the discussion of British Roadsters.

To get back to BMW I would say that the worst engineered car I ever owned was my 2007 BMW 335i with sport suspension and run flat tires. That car was for all practical purposes undrivable on anything but pristine road surfaces. I destroyed 8 tires and bent 4 rims on potholes with that car. I solved the issue by ditching the RFTs and replace the crap OEM dampers with Koni FSDs. That transformed the car but I should not have to re-engineer an "Ultimate Driving Machine".

For some (probably totally illogical) reason I continued to buy BMWs - 2012 750Lix, 2015 M4 and 2018 M4. Had no issues with any of those cars but if my 2007 335i is an example of "BMW Like" and BMW returns to cars like that I will consider other makes.

As much as I like my 2018 M4 (and liked my 2015 M4) I also have liked my Jaguars and I feel that Jaguar is better at designing a suspension that is a compromise between comfort and handling than BMW is.

[sygazelle]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I agree about the F30. I was at my dealer I bought my E90 from sometime back in the fall of 2013. My sales rep was still there and suggested I take out an F30 320i with a sport package (he was trying to dump it for cheap). What a terrible car. The brakes and steering were not sourced from BMW I thought. I took it on some great country roads. You couldn't place the car at an apex to save your life. And for BMW to just de-tune the N20 down to 181 HP, was a poor choice by BMW. What a downgrade from the E90.

I get it that the market now doesn't really care about sports sedans, but this is a BMW 3-series and BMWs in the US have never been inexpensive; BMW should foot the bill to give us a choice of a properly-sorted manual transmission in the non-M version of the G20. GM and Ford have the balls to keep the Camaro and Mustang fitted with a V8 and manual transmission as keen to those cars legacies. BMW should do the same for the 3-series.

So, are you saying your point of view regarding the F30 is based on a 2013 320i? Have you driven a properly spec'd F30? Like you, I've driven BMWs for 30 years, have of those with manual transmission. My nicely spec'd F30 with M-sport, DHP, go flat tires, and Dinan Shockware is an amazing little sports sedan. I drove 5 series before the F30, including 2 awesome E39 540's, and my particular F30 is the best car of all of them. I got a F30 320 as a loner once and there is a huge difference between that base car and my nicely spec'd car. So my question is, have you driven an F30 with DHP with m suspension on go flat tires? I've read all the posts in this thread and I know I'm going to get butchered for actually loving the F30. Too bad. From the early days when BMW was a niche player, catering to the driving enthusiast was good enough. BMW is now a global brand and a major force in the autio industry. They cannot succeed by building all of their cars for the less than 1% who frequent these forums and speak of numb steering and the need for manual transmissions. They are too busy selling great cars to the masses. According to their sales, they have been pretty darn successful with that approach.

We've had 6 years now of E90 owners visiting this F30 forum and talking about how bad the F30 is and how great the E90 remains. Many of the car mags drank that cool aid too. BMW has lost its way, blah, blah, blah. My brother has an E90 335i and its a nice car for sure. No arguement with that. But, my car is better in every single way that matters to me.

This forum is full of F30 owners who love their cars. Many are past 100,000 miles now with zero or few problems. That is the true legacy of this model, not a few E90 owners telling us how horrible our cars are. Will the G20 be better? It had better be. Just like the F30 is better thanthe E90. The market is fierce and BMW knows it. Bottom line: Its a great time to be a car buyer. Thanks for listening.