[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(1.) BMW *is* in financial pain - they're priced below scrap or as the CEO says their stock price "implies we have no future". Further, their financials aren't great:

They're barely sneaking a profit:

[IMG]

View post on imgur.com

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And they're operating in debt:

[IMG]

View post on imgur.com

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(2.) BMW *did* start selling EVs/PHEVs, notably the i3 & i8

(3.) BMW knew back to at least 2007 they were facing 4 disruption risks:
‣ SUVs
‣ China
‣ Millennials
‣ EVs

Back then, they took steps to address all of them - which was smart: get ahead of challenges while you have the time, money, and talent to do it.

But then went wobbly and let the accountants take over an abandoned EVs based on the ole hope plan ... and hope is not a plan.

What BMW didn't act on was, the EV risk impacts all of the others - get that one wrong and no matter how great you've address the others, they all fall if EVs take off. And what's worse, in allowing the accountants to take over product, they lost all their great product and design people and now they've got a crisis, a terrible balance sheet, and no talent to address the crisis.

BMW fucked up in a big way - it's 50-50 if they can recover, but if they do they'll be one of the very few companies to save a disruption nose-dive ...

your graphs support your narrative but Do they support the overall truth. where did you get them from? clean technica or inside ev
Seriously not all stories are blockbuster v Netflix. Or if Netflix is huge so is hbo sky Disney plus YouTube amazon prime and many other streaming platforms.

[TiMSport]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

your graphs support your narrative but Do they support the overall truth. where did you get them from? clean technica or inside ev
Seriously not all stories are blockbuster v Netflix. Or if Netflix is huge so is hbo sky Disney plus YouTube amazon prime and many other streaming platforms.

https://twitter.com/jpr007 ?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

https://twitter.com/jpr007 ?

He put together into the chart but the data is all available directly from - as noted - corporate annual reports. To check any of the numbers you can go to the corporate investor relations website. You can check BMW here

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

your graphs support your narrative but Do they support the overall truth

Welp, you can check the data yourself and if you find any errors let me know! I didn't but I only checked BMW and Tesla

In a funny related story, I was cleaning up stuff today and ran across this from 2017:



But the better question is, you said, "BMW is not in financial pain" - walk me through your reasoning cause, let's be honest, your data is "I bought one and they're still selling cars", right?

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

jpr007

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

your graphs support your narrative but Do they support the overall truth.

Separately, the other question to consider is overall ICE capacity globally ... we're now well past the point where EV sales are cutting into ICE. That's a big deal, because ICE was already overcapacity as far back as 2015; as ICE demand continues falling, who's going to get hit?

ICE factories can't be easily converted to EV factories, which is why Tesla has consistently declined to buy any ICE factories other than its first empty one ... and between VW, Benz, and BMW they must have A LOT of unused ICE capacity ... and between those 3, it's BMW that's the current laughing stock.

Someone like Porsche can probably deal with ICE factories as it could be likely they continue selling ICE 911s for a long time...

But it does make you wonder how BMW - getting squeezed by EVs and shooting themselves in the foot on ICE - is going to deal with dwindling sales and excess capacity ...

[KRS_SN]

a. I don't use twitter
b. quick look at the jpr thing reveals it to be a tesla fanboy type hack website. Same type of graphs write ups etc like inside ev clean technica etc.
c.BMW didn't have to sell carbon credits they sold cars to make profit lol
d. wrt profits despite covid strong sales
e. BMW were here decades ago will be here decades from now.

source..common sense and not reading teslabot hack websites or twitter

[KRS_SN]

excess capacity is good. afterall there is going to be a great demand for EVs. So is having a great financial arm and service centres etc.
Having nothing but a bloated market cap like Tesla is what use if little or no profit
Porsche who survived by selling macans cayennes etc rather than true Porsche like 911 and 991 they were late to the suv party unlike bmw(who weren't the first to the party but boy did they make a meal of it).
I understand investors are using tesla to fund their retirement but can't do that with bmw shares.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

source..common sense

You're wrong and afraid to admit it - I get it. Apology accepted!

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

Having nothing but a bloated market cap like Tesla is what use if little or no profit

As noted in the past, TSLA is dumb for turning a profit right now - they're an innovation company in hyper-global-growth mode building new plants on 3 continents ... TSLA should be plowing all their money into infrastructure and R&D like Amazon did for 20 years.

For whatever reason, Elon doesn't want to do that - i suppose for the marketing story of making a profit? dunno - but as an investor (via index funds), given TSLA's stock price, I'd rather see them spending on R&D than making profits ....


As for BMW, they have dwindling market share, talent fleeing, are shooting themselves in the foot with new products, and not very ready to deal with a Chinese EV invasion ... this is what the 1980s invasion Japan looked like in the US 1961 - 2016, with a hat tip to BMW!

[TiMSport]

All I can say is just wow....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-e/7082995002/

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

You're wrong and afraid to admit it - I get it. Apology accepted!

on the contrary every graph and scripted paragraph I see that's shared across the board on ev inside websites and teslabot YouTube channels leads me to believe that I'm witnessing a Internet ponzi movement ie iponzi
Business is about profit per car sold and sales not click likes buzzfeeds etc which tesla has a lot of.
I have no affiliation to bmw other than that I've owned 6 different ones over 10 years with zero breakdown (touch wood).

[KRS_SN]

Originally Posted by TiMSport

All I can say is just wow....

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...-e/7082995002/

not surprised...
YouTube anything bad about tesla and top link is from a fanboy site about how he thought it was bad but it is soo good.
BMW fanboys own a car but won't lose a penny if it goes bust. Tesla fanboys may or may not own a Tesla car but may own $$$ in stocks so elon can fire the PR department as there is a free pr army.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by KRS_SN

not surprised...
YouTube anything bad about tesla and top link is from a fanboy site about how he thought it was bad but it is soo good.
BMW fanboys own a car but won't lose a penny if it goes bust. Tesla fanboys may or may not own a Tesla car but may own $$$ in stocks so elon can fire the PR department as there is a free pr army.

Wow you're really upping your Tesla hater game!

There've been a lot of fascinating cultural phenomena to observe in the last 5 years, and I gotta say Tesla haters are one of the best IMO.

"this manufacturer sells these cars! " is really interesting ...

That said, I feel the same way about the G8x soooo...

[David70]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

(1.) BMW *is* in financial pain - they're priced below scrap or as the CEO says their stock price "implies we have no future". Further, their financials aren't great:

They're barely sneaking a profit:



And they're operating in debt:



(2.) BMW *did* start selling EVs/PHEVs, notably the i3 & i8

(3.) BMW knew back to at least 2007 they were facing 4 disruption risks:
‣ SUVs
‣ China
‣ Millennials
‣ EVs

Back then, they took steps to address all of them - which was smart: get ahead of challenges while you have the time, money, and talent to do it.

But then went wobbly and let the accountants take over an abandoned EVs based on the ole hope plan ... and hope is not a plan.

What BMW didn't act on was, the EV risk impacts all of the others - get that one wrong and no matter how great you've address the others, they all fall if EVs take off. And what's worse, in allowing the accountants to take over product, they lost all their great product and design people and now they've got a crisis, a terrible balance sheet, and no talent to address the crisis.

BMW fucked up in a big way - it's 50-50 if they can recover, but if they do they'll be one of the very few companies to save a disruption nose-dive ...

When you post "data" why not also post the link to where you got it? You got it from somewhere, looks like you are trying to get us to buy into your information without questioning it.

Cash is a really poor indicator of a good business, at the very least also include debt but even then it's a tiny portion of the whole picture.

For the "Automotive Operating Profit" - Just looks at building and selling cars and removes everything else? Like a coffee shop showing that they make huge profits on the actual coffee but then its everything else that dooms them?

[David70]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

As noted in the past, TSLA is dumb for turning a profit right now - they're an innovation company in hyper-global-growth mode building new plants on 3 continents ... TSLA should be plowing all their money into infrastructure and R&D like Amazon did for 20 years.

For whatever reason, Elon doesn't want to do that - i suppose for the marketing story of making a profit? dunno - but as an investor (via index funds), given TSLA's stock price, I'd rather see them spending on R&D than making profits ....


As for BMW, they have dwindling market share, talent fleeing, are shooting themselves in the foot with new products, and not very ready to deal with a Chinese EV invasion ... this is what the 1980s invasion Japan looked like in the US 1961 - 2016, with a hat tip to BMW!

Tesla is owned by stockholders, Musk has around 22% of the company, they also have around $14 billion in debt. TSLA can't be dumb, maybe the people running it should make different decisions but the stockholders and board also have their agenda. Musk is the head of the company but not the owner.

They showed a profit of $700 million last year and are sitting on $2.3 billion in cash. There's a reason they are sitting on a huge amount of cash compared to the other manufacturers. For a company valued at $700 billion the profits are peanuts. If they want to grow quicker and spend money the cash is there. Part of their concern is cash going down and having to raise more of it, then as you try to raise more cash through stock sales or more debt, interest rates and payments become an issue, more stock means each share is worth a little less. As you go out and and try to raise cash the interest rate is also negotiated and lenders/bonds buyers like to see a company that can turn a profit and give better rates to companies they feel more confident in. It's a balancing act.

You may not care about them turning a profit but a lot of their stockholders do and their lenders/bond holders definitely do. They've also been around 15 years? At some point the market wonders when it will happen.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by David70

When you post "data" why not also post the link to where you got it? You got it from somewhere, looks like you are trying to get us to buy into your information without questioning it.

Hey Dave? Check it out:



And, then there was this:



I'm not your mom Dave - at some point you gotta do your own homework.

[GrussGott]

Wow! This is quite the run to the exits for $NKLA

[TiMSport]

WTF is up with Nikola anyway? Did they EVER show proof of concept as in a real vehicle driving? I haven't been following it in a while but I couldn't believe all the hype behind something that didn't even provide proof, unless I'm missing something.

[David70]

Originally Posted by GrussGott

Hey Dave? Check it out:



And, then there was this:



I'm not your mom Dave - at some point you gotta do your own homework.

Do whatever you want, but your page long replies with lots of questionable data aren't worth my time if I have to research what you just did yourself. I figure you do this so your half baked ideas aren't questioned.

[GrussGott]

Originally Posted by David70

lots of questionable data aren't worth my time if I have to research

You've never written a better description of your adult self in your life, huh?

[GrussGott]

Wow, Tesla Model 3 was the #4 best selling car of any type in the UK in March, outselling the BMW 3-series, but doesn't make the top 10 list YTD ... something going on? What changed?

Tesla's famous end-of-quarter delivery ramp-up?



For Dave:
Step 1: Ask your Mom if it's ok to use the computer
Step 2: Navigate to the link above
Step 3: Scroll down 3 pages

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders (SMMT) is one of the largest and most influential trade associations in the UK. Its resources, reputation and unrivalled automotive data place it at the heart of the UK automotive industry.

[KRS_SN]

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/06/tesl...s-analyst.html

[Efthreeoh]

So I had an opportunity to get about 20 minutes yesterday to look over the Mustang Mach E. I was at Bronco event at a local Ford dealer. The dealer had an E-Stang out front, open for review. Did not drive it.

Wow, for a first dedicated EV shot, Ford has made a compelling argument to buy something other than a Tesla. For the market of people who are more car guys (including women) than tech weenies, considering the price, the E-Stang hits a home run. It's a beautiful car inside and out. Tons of style. From several recent reports, it steers and handles well. My only complaint is the stupid super-screen stuck on the dash. Perhaps charging is cumbersome compared to Tesla, but I'm still in the boat that gasoline recharging remains the better overall option for personal mobility, so the E-Stang is competing against ICE recharging more than Tesla recharging, and is still a PIA.