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      06-03-2019, 07:55 PM   #23
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I really like the current ATV/CTS look and how they drive. The problem with GM -V versions is that they still are not able to capture the M-ness of BMW. Dan Neil once said that the ATS-V is not really a BMW M3 but feels more like a very well sorted high HP 335i coupe which I tend to agree. Anybody can make a car goes fast like the M3 nowaday ... I mean a based V8 Camaro or Mustang can go just as fast if not faster than the M3.

Engineering a car to have that BMW M feel is not quite so easy though. It takes more than just bolting on a high power engine and stiffening up the suspension (something which the Japanese cars are guilty of as well). It takes messing down to the bones and fleshes of these cars which will cost a lot of money too. To some extend the NSX which is designed and built in Ohio has the same problem when comparing to those of Ferrari, McLaren, R8 ...
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      06-03-2019, 10:33 PM   #24
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it seems they gave up on the interior layout and did copy-paste of bmw interior

it may be good chassis but that's not enough to compete in the segment and it looks dated already
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      06-04-2019, 05:00 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
I really like the current ATV/CTS look and how they drive. The problem with GM -V versions is that they still are not able to capture the M-ness of BMW. Dan Neil once said that the ATS-V is not really a BMW M3 but feels more like a very well sorted high HP 335i coupe which I tend to agree. Anybody can make a car goes fast like the M3 nowaday ... I mean a based V8 Camaro or Mustang can go just as fast if not faster than the M3.

Engineering a car to have that BMW M feel is not quite so easy though. It takes more than just bolting on a high power engine and stiffening up the suspension (something which the Japanese cars are guilty of as well). It takes messing down to the bones and fleshes of these cars which will cost a lot of money too. To some extend the NSX which is designed and built in Ohio has the same problem when comparing to those of Ferrari, McLaren, R8 ...
I'd say BMW doesn't even make a car with the "3-series feel" anymore. I've not yet driven the G20, but of the five or so F30 variations I drove since its introduction, all lacked the BMW DNA. All of the four variants of the ATS I drove accomplished delivering a well-balanced, great handling chassis that one would expect a 3-series to have.

If the Alpha-2 chassis holds true to what the ATS delivered for driving dynamics, then that's half the game for me. I like the looks of the CT-4 so far. Maybe Cadillac will go rouge and actually put a V6 with a manual in it.
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      06-04-2019, 05:14 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
it seems they gave up on the interior layout and did copy-paste of bmw interior

it may be good chassis but that's not enough to compete in the segment and it looks dated already
So the ATS had an integrated touch screen, which everyone pissed all over. The follow-on CT4 has a tablet sticking out of the dash like the G20 and A4 et.al., and now with a rotary controller, and... peeing again. At least it has real analog gauges, instead of whatever BMW came up with... the counter-clockwise tachometer.
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      06-04-2019, 06:25 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
So the ATS had an integrated touch screen, which everyone pissed all over. The follow-on CT4 has a tablet sticking out of the dash like the G20 and A4 et.al., and now with a rotary controller, and... peeing again. At least it has real analog gauges, instead of whatever BMW came up with... the counter-clockwise tachometer.
My B8 S4 base version without the tech upgrades managed to fit the screen, center HVAC vents, MMI controls, and HVAC controls all on the front of the center console without doing the pop out tablet thing and clogging up view of the windshield.. I still do not understand this design trend, even Audi is doing it now. It looks so dumb.
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      06-04-2019, 08:28 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
I really like the current ATV/CTS look and how they drive. The problem with GM -V versions is that they still are not able to capture the M-ness of BMW. Dan Neil once said that the ATS-V is not really a BMW M3 but feels more like a very well sorted high HP 335i coupe which I tend to agree. Anybody can make a car goes fast like the M3 nowaday ... I mean a based V8 Camaro or Mustang can go just as fast if not faster than the M3.

Engineering a car to have that BMW M feel is not quite so easy though. It takes more than just bolting on a high power engine and stiffening up the suspension (something which the Japanese cars are guilty of as well). It takes messing down to the bones and fleshes of these cars which will cost a lot of money too. To some extend the NSX which is designed and built in Ohio has the same problem when comparing to those of Ferrari, McLaren, R8 ...
So what exactly are you saying? What is the "feel"? Inquiring minds with 6spd magride V8 285/305s and Ediff want to know.
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      06-04-2019, 08:54 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
it seems they gave up on the interior layout and did copy-paste of bmw interior

it may be good chassis but that's not enough to compete in the segment and it looks dated already
So the ATS had an integrated touch screen, which everyone pissed all over. The follow-on CT4 has a tablet sticking out of the dash like the G20 and A4 et.al., and now with a rotary controller, and... peeing again. At least it has real analog gauges, instead of whatever BMW came up with... the counter-clockwise tachometer.
yeah that right-to-left tach is annoying ... it seems displaying music and media crap is more important. Also baffled they don't offer regular analog gages on 340
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      06-04-2019, 11:20 AM   #30
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Other than Magnetic Ride Control suspension, the rest of the vehicle falls short across all departments.
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      06-04-2019, 01:43 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ntgarage44 View Post
My B8 S4 base version without the tech upgrades managed to fit the screen, center HVAC vents, MMI controls, and HVAC controls all on the front of the center console without doing the pop out tablet thing and clogging up view of the windshield.. I still do not understand this design trend, even Audi is doing it now. It looks so dumb.
Yeah, I don't like the popped-up design either. Yet, I see no need for such a system at all. What does it really give you that is critical to the task of driving? Navigation perhaps, but smartphones work quite well IMO.
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      06-04-2019, 08:41 PM   #32
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Other than Magnetic Ride Control suspension, the rest of the vehicle falls short across all departments.
Based on.... what? Have you driven it? Ridden in it? Seen it for real?
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      06-04-2019, 08:49 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllSic_Design View Post
This thing just doesn't look good or aggressive. Most of the time when I think of Cadillac I still think of old people(unless we are talking about the sweet/aggressive looking CTS-V's) and this new offering does not help to change that opinion.
I'm 57 and like to take my E90 325i carving up back country roads at 70 MPH every day; as I type this, I'm just an hour out of that fun this evening. My local deer population suggested I check my speed this evening... (Efthreeoh, CUT THAT SHIT OUT!!!!). So what does "old people" mean? I know at 67, I'll still drive that way; I have since I was 16. Back in the 1970's my best friend's dad, a dentist, would buy 2-year old Caddies for him and his wife; a Coupe Deville (hers) and a Sedan Deville (his), beautiful, well-crafted cars (before the GM bean counters fucked up Cadillac). The cars looked and drove like heaven, his dad was all of 50 maybe at the time. 2002's would bounce off the fenders of his Cadillac's

The ATS and now, hopefully CT4 will keep this old man ripping up back country roads you'd pay someone to get to drive on.
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      06-04-2019, 08:56 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'm 57 and like to take my E90 325i carving up back country roads at 70 MPH every day; as I type this, I'm just an hour out of that fun this evening. My local deer population suggested I check my speed this evening... (Efthreeoh, CUT THAT SHIT OUT!!!!). So what does "old people" mean? I know at 67, I'll still drive that way; I have since I was 16. Back in the 1970's my best friend's dad, a dentist, would buy 2-year old Caddies for him and his wife; a Coupe Deville (hers) and a Sedan Deville (his), beautiful, well-crafted cars (before the GM bean counters fucked up Cadillac). The cars looked and drove like heaven, his dad was all of 50 maybe at the time. 2002's would bounce off the fenders of his Cadillac's

The ATS and now, hopefully CT4 will keep this old man ripping up back country roads you'd pay someone to get to drive on.
Lol when I say old I mean like 65-70+, but I don't mean those that are older and still young at heart as you seem to be, but the crusty old folks who can't drive and hit everything.
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      06-04-2019, 09:37 PM   #35
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Based on.... what? Have you driven it? Ridden in it? Seen it for real?
All vehicles are a reflection of the company which builds them.

Few data points about Cadillac - all in the last year or so:

- April 2018: Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen leaves the company (fired). Johan was a GM outsider. Steve Carlisle, his replacement, is a GM insider (more of the same)

- In 2018, Cadillac sold 11K ATS vehicles vs 45K BMW 3 series. ATS-V and M3 sales are included in these numbers

- In January 2018, newly appointed GM President Mark Reuss told Reuters "we don't have any chances left with taking Cadillac to a really new place"

- Cadillac's Super Cruise system doesn't work well under full sunlight. The system can suddenly shut off "if direct sunlight is stopping a steering-wheel-column-mounted infrared camera from looking at your face".

https://www.autonews.com/technology/...s-super-cruise

Back to the new CT4-V and CT5-V.

These new cars are a complete departure from ATS-V and CTS-V. For example, in 2016 3rd generation CTS-V offered 640 HP.

CT5-V 3.0-liter twin turbo V6 offers 355 horsepower while BMW M340i offers 382 horsepower in a B58 derivative. Arguably, B58 engine is one of the best engines built so far.

For Cadillac to make a convincing product which competes with BMW, Mercedes and Audi, healthy sales in Europe are a must. Instead, Cadillac sales in Europe have been nearly insignificant.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...data/cadillac/

Finally, GM interior is well ... Generally Marginal at best.
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      06-05-2019, 06:20 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
All vehicles are a reflection of the company which builds them.

Few data points about Cadillac - all in the last year or so:

- April 2018: Cadillac President Johan de Nysschen leaves the company (fired). Johan was a GM outsider. Steve Carlisle, his replacement, is a GM insider (more of the same)

- In 2018, Cadillac sold 11K ATS vehicles vs 45K BMW 3 series. ATS-V and M3 sales are included in these numbers

- In January 2018, newly appointed GM President Mark Reuss told Reuters "we don't have any chances left with taking Cadillac to a really new place"

- Cadillac's Super Cruise system doesn't work well under full sunlight. The system can suddenly shut off "if direct sunlight is stopping a steering-wheel-column-mounted infrared camera from looking at your face".

https://www.autonews.com/technology/...s-super-cruise

Back to the new CT4-V and CT5-V.

These new cars are a complete departure from ATS-V and CTS-V. For example, in 2016 3rd generation CTS-V offered 640 HP.

CT5-V 3.0-liter twin turbo V6 offers 355 horsepower while BMW M340i offers 382 horsepower in a B58 derivative. Arguably, B58 engine is one of the best engines built so far.

For Cadillac to make a convincing product which competes with BMW, Mercedes and Audi, healthy sales in Europe are a must. Instead, Cadillac sales in Europe have been nearly insignificant.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...data/cadillac/

Finally, GM interior is well ... Generally Marginal at best.
But again, have you driven the car or seen the car? Your basing your assessment of on data that is unrelated to an empirical evaluation of the car. I'll wait to make an assessment until I get to drive it.

At some point the argument of "yeah, but the interior sucks" gets old Peeling E90 door handles and steering wheels anyone....
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      06-05-2019, 08:25 AM   #37
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While I don't disagree with all your points I do think some need to be added to or challenged. You can nitpick and cherry-pick quotes all day long (isn't BMW chief in danger of being ousted as well?) that does not necessarily reflect on the product itself. 3-series is a known brand that has been around for a while and the ATS is a first gen vehicle. Many would argue that the ATS was as good, if not better, all around car than the 3 (many in this thread have said as such) but the ATS was not well-marketed and never got traction. People love bimmers and some blindly! Shoot, even I bought one after knowing about the issues with their V8s. Cadillac lost its way several years back and is trying to rebuild itself. unfortunately, and this is entirely my opinion, not very well.

At least with SC it will not cause you to crash...it will actually make the driver take control. While the system is not perfect it has safety features built in trying to prevent crashes from happening if the system cannot function at 100%. not saying it is fool-proof but we have seen what happens when semi-autonomous features fail (see Tesla).

In terms of CT4/5-Vs not following in the ATS/CTS-V footsteps (departure in your words), they are simply using a new naming convention, similar to other OEMs. As already announced, there will be higher performance variants coming out that will be more of that "V" tradition. The CT4/5-Vs are within spitting distance of the M340 so I am not sure the point there. It will compete in the M340 wheelhouse, no doubt.

Finally, I don't think you need to be successful in Europe to build to make a convincing product as you say. You need to be successful in Europe as a business to allow you to reinvest in your product for the future. Plenty of vehicles of all types are successful without having much in terms of sales in Europe. I think it is a shame Cadillac cannot be more successful there, but does not mean they cannot make a quality car for their home market that competes with the German automakers.

Sorry for the long post. these are just my opinions but felt the need to interject.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
All vehicles are a reflection of the company which builds them.

- Cadillac's Super Cruise system doesn't work well under full sunlight. The system can suddenly shut off "if direct sunlight is stopping a steering-wheel-column-mounted infrared camera from looking at your face".

Back to the new CT4-V and CT5-V.

These new cars are a complete departure from ATS-V and CTS-V. For example, in 2016 3rd generation CTS-V offered 640 HP.

CT5-V 3.0-liter twin turbo V6 offers 355 horsepower while BMW M340i offers 382 horsepower in a B58 derivative. Arguably, B58 engine is one of the best engines built so far.

For Cadillac to make a convincing product which competes with BMW, Mercedes and Audi, healthy sales in Europe are a must. Instead, Cadillac sales in Europe have been nearly insignificant.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...data/cadillac/

Finally, GM interior is well ... Generally Marginal at best.
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      06-05-2019, 09:31 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ferizzo View Post
While I don't disagree with all your points I do think some need to be added to or challenged. You can nitpick and cherry-pick quotes all day long (isn't BMW chief in danger of being ousted as well?) that does not necessarily reflect on the product itself. 3-series is a known brand that has been around for a while and the ATS is a first gen vehicle. Many would argue that the ATS was as good, if not better, all around car than the 3 (many in this thread have said as such) but the ATS was not well-marketed and never got traction. People love bimmers and some blindly! Shoot, even I bought one after knowing about the issues with their V8s. Cadillac lost its way several years back and is trying to rebuild itself. unfortunately, and this is entirely my opinion, not very well.

At least with SC it will not cause you to crash...it will actually make the driver take control. While the system is not perfect it has safety features built in trying to prevent crashes from happening if the system cannot function at 100%. not saying it is fool-proof but we have seen what happens when semi-autonomous features fail (see Tesla).

In terms of CT4/5-Vs not following in the ATS/CTS-V footsteps (departure in your words), they are simply using a new naming convention, similar to other OEMs. As already announced, there will be higher performance variants coming out that will be more of that "V" tradition. The CT4/5-Vs are within spitting distance of the M340 so I am not sure the point there. It will compete in the M340 wheelhouse, no doubt.

Finally, I don't think you need to be successful in Europe to build to make a convincing product as you say. You need to be successful in Europe as a business to allow you to reinvest in your product for the future. Plenty of vehicles of all types are successful without having much in terms of sales in Europe. I think it is a shame Cadillac cannot be more successful there, but does not mean they cannot make a quality car for their home market that competes with the German automakers.

Sorry for the long post. these are just my opinions but felt the need to interject.



Quote:
Originally Posted by cfm56d7b View Post
All vehicles are a reflection of the company which builds them.

- Cadillac's Super Cruise system doesn't work well under full sunlight. The system can suddenly shut off "if direct sunlight is stopping a steering-wheel-column-mounted infrared camera from looking at your face".

Back to the new CT4-V and CT5-V.

These new cars are a complete departure from ATS-V and CTS-V. For example, in 2016 3rd generation CTS-V offered 640 HP.

CT5-V 3.0-liter twin turbo V6 offers 355 horsepower while BMW M340i offers 382 horsepower in a B58 derivative. Arguably, B58 engine is one of the best engines built so far.

For Cadillac to make a convincing product which competes with BMW, Mercedes and Audi, healthy sales in Europe are a must. Instead, Cadillac sales in Europe have been nearly insignificant.

http://carsalesbase.com/european-car...data/cadillac/

Finally, GM interior is well ... Generally Marginal at best.
I could not agree with you more because I also want Cadillac to succeed. It would be yet another tragedy if Cadillac were to experience the same fate as Pontiac.
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      06-05-2019, 09:57 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by ferizzo View Post
While I don't disagree with all your points I do think some need to be added to or challenged. You can nitpick and cherry-pick quotes all day long (isn't BMW chief in danger of being ousted as well?) that does not necessarily reflect on the product itself. 3-series is a known brand that has been around for a while and the ATS is a first gen vehicle. Many would argue that the ATS was as good, if not better, all around car than the 3 (many in this thread have said as such) but the ATS was not well-marketed and never got traction. People love bimmers and some blindly! Shoot, even I bought one after knowing about the issues with their V8s. Cadillac lost its way several years back and is trying to rebuild itself. unfortunately, and this is entirely my opinion, not very well.

At least with SC it will not cause you to crash...it will actually make the driver take control. While the system is not perfect it has safety features built in trying to prevent crashes from happening if the system cannot function at 100%. not saying it is fool-proof but we have seen what happens when semi-autonomous features fail (see Tesla).

In terms of CT4/5-Vs not following in the ATS/CTS-V footsteps (departure in your words), they are simply using a new naming convention, similar to other OEMs. As already announced, there will be higher performance variants coming out that will be more of that "V" tradition. The CT4/5-Vs are within spitting distance of the M340 so I am not sure the point there. It will compete in the M340 wheelhouse, no doubt.

Finally, I don't think you need to be successful in Europe to build to make a convincing product as you say. You need to be successful in Europe as a business to allow you to reinvest in your product for the future. Plenty of vehicles of all types are successful without having much in terms of sales in Europe. I think it is a shame Cadillac cannot be more successful there, but does not mean they cannot make a quality car for their home market that competes with the German automakers.

Sorry for the long post. these are just my opinions but felt the need to interject.
Thanks, you wrote EXACTLY what I wanted to but didn't have time. I think one thing that did in Cadillac's prez, a former VW executive, was his moving Cadillac HQ to New York City. That move made no sense whatsoever. No mainstream luxury brand is independent from it's parent, and NONE do not platform/component share, so moving Cadillac HQ from Detroit made no sense. BMW is now so far from it's roots that it is just plain silly. 98% of BMW buyers are buying the Roundel on the hood. A current Cadillac is more than adequate for those buyers other than the Caddy Crest is not a faux propeller badge in the colors of Deutchland, so it does not impress the neighbors.

Being a BMW owner for 30 years and 4 vehicles with 900,000 combined BMW miles under my belt, I doubt there's many people who like and appreciate BMWs like I do. But if BMW is going to offer only a 4-cylinder turbo and 8-sp automatic in their entry level sportsedan like every other manufacturer does, then I have no issue with looking elsewhere.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-05-2019 at 10:59 AM..
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      06-05-2019, 10:10 AM   #40
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Contrary to belief, it was not Johan that wanted to move Cadillac to NYC:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/23/...w-cadillac-gm/

His undoing, again in my opinion, was that he clashed with GM leadership. He honestly wanted Cadillac to succeed, as do all the GM execs, but he clashed a lot with the established leadership.

There were pros and cons of moving Cadillac from GM HQ (not necessarily to NYC per se). One benefit I saw was that Cadillac got a bigger voice. You had people that only thought Cadillac as opposed to "GM." Read the above Interview...I enjoyed reading it and agree with Johan on some points. It was a good read.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Thanks, you wrote EXACTLY what I wanted to but didn't have time. I think one thing that did in Cadillac's prez, a former VW executive, was his moving Cadillac HQ to New York City. That move made no sense whatsoever. No mainstream luxury brand is independent from it's parent, and NONE do not platform/component share, so moving Cadillac HQ from Detroit made no sense.
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      06-05-2019, 12:35 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ferizzo View Post
Contrary to belief, it was not Johan that wanted to move Cadillac to NYC:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/23/...w-cadillac-gm/

His undoing, again in my opinion, was that he clashed with GM leadership. He honestly wanted Cadillac to succeed, as do all the GM execs, but he clashed a lot with the established leadership.

There were pros and cons of moving Cadillac from GM HQ (not necessarily to NYC per se). One benefit I saw was that Cadillac got a bigger voice. You had people that only thought Cadillac as opposed to "GM." Read the above Interview...I enjoyed reading it and agree with Johan on some points. It was a good read.
Interesting. I remember the CBS News Sunday Morning having a piece on Cadillac's move to NYC coinsciding with the hiring of the new president some 18 months ago, or whenever it was. Maybe it was implied, but the piece made the two moves out as a new direction for Cadillac. I'll not argue the point, but as I said, all mainstream luxury manufacturers share platforms and components. The idea of an eclusive Buick, Cadillac, GMC, Oldsmobile engine died after the 1970s. I'm not sure the said downturn of the post CTS Cadillac company is because the engines are sourced from GM corporate.

I think Cadillac's mistakes with the ATS were (a) selling a low-content unit with the iron Duke in it, and (b) not offering a V6/manual trans combo. A V6 with a manual would have gotten me out of my E90.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 06-05-2019 at 12:45 PM..
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      06-06-2019, 09:26 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by ferizzo View Post
Contrary to belief, it was not Johan that wanted to move Cadillac to NYC:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/04/23/...w-cadillac-gm/

His undoing, again in my opinion, was that he clashed with GM leadership. He honestly wanted Cadillac to succeed, as do all the GM execs, but he clashed a lot with the established leadership.

There were pros and cons of moving Cadillac from GM HQ (not necessarily to NYC per se). One benefit I saw was that Cadillac got a bigger voice. You had people that only thought Cadillac as opposed to "GM." Read the above Interview...I enjoyed reading it and agree with Johan on some points. It was a good read.
Thanks for posting the Automobile mag link. I agree, it was a good read. I'm not much of a Jamie Kitman fan, but it seemed fair enough. I think de Nysschen has been reading my E90 Fourm posts! He and I agree on the EV disruption, autonomous driving tech, and Wall Street. Glad to see at least one auto exec with his head actually not in his ass. Now I see why there was tension between him and GM Brass.

I don't see Musk hiring de Nysschen anytime soon after we Nysschen's no-compete clause expries.
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      06-06-2019, 04:08 PM   #43
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Haha...probably not! I liked working with Johan and agreed with his overall vision (not everything per se) and could see why he was frustrated. I think he needed more time and he could have turned Cadillac around. He helped with the growth in China and was now more focused on the US before his ouster. oh well.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Thanks for posting the Automobile mag link. I agree, it was a good read. I'm not much of a Jamie Kitman fan, but it seemed fair enough. I think de Nysschen has been reading my E90 Fourm posts! He and I agree on the EV disruption, autonomous driving tech, and Wall Street. Glad to see at least one auto exec with his head actually not in his ass. Now I see why there was tension between him and GM Brass.

I don't see Musk hiring de Nysschen anytime soon after we Nysschen's no-compete clause expries.
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      06-07-2019, 01:31 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'd say BMW doesn't even make a car with the "3-series feel" anymore. I've not yet driven the G20, but of the five or so F30 variations I drove since its introduction, all lacked the BMW DNA. All of the four variants of the ATS I drove accomplished delivering a well-balanced, great handling chassis that one would expect a 3-series to have.

If the Alpha-2 chassis holds true to what the ATS delivered for driving dynamics, then that's half the game for me. I like the looks of the CT-4 so far. Maybe Cadillac will go rouge and actually put a V6 with a manual in it.
Although many people believe the ATS-V and CTS-V have better handling than most of their counterparts, What I said really not related to handling.
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