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      02-20-2020, 12:00 PM   #23
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Yeah, but I had a Miata as an only car for years. With enough desire, you can make almost anything work.
My NA Miata is my daily lol. Makes the most sense economically for me. $3.60 a month for insurance, $15 a week for gas, easy peasy.
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      02-20-2020, 12:44 PM   #24
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You guys are making shit up. My wife drives seven miles a day. It takes her weeks to need gas. If I plugged an EV in overnight on a weekend, she'd be fine. Inevitably her car will need gas when it's 37, windy and rainy and the first two stations I go to will have premium out of order. We already use my car exclusively for road trips, so there's really zero opportunity for EV range anxiety in our situation.
But you have an ICE vehicle. Heck, even your wife has an ICE vehicle. And you no doubt have your reasons for that. Are those made up too?

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Given the number of EV'a just in my community and the fact that I've never seen one on the side of the road, I'd guess they're not freaking out about it either.
People that don't fit the EV use cases aren't buying them - that's why you aren't seeing them stranded on the road.

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So 60's 427 sports cars are my idea of range anxiety.
Yet, in a six or seven hundred mile race, that car will beat the Tesla Model S with a 100kW battery by hours, even though the Tesla would probably smoke it twice over in a drag race. You're not willing to make that type of compromise with the cars in your garage, and neither is anyone else.

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Yeah, but I had a Miata as an only car for years. With enough desire, you can make almost anything work.
Yep. But most people don't aspire to the minimal solution that just gets you by. They have the means to do better than that, to cover other use cases should they arise, to allow for the unforeseen, to ensure they have the best possible tools in a busy life full of uncertainty.

You aren't a minimalist, and neither are most others. That's why you don't have two EVs today, you won't tomorrow, and neither will most other people.
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      02-20-2020, 12:53 PM   #25
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Except "range anxiety" isn't a thing with ICE.
I've gotten range anxiety in my M3. I've also experienced a time where my range was no longer a number but said "----".

To say "range anxiety" isn't a thing with an ICE vehicle is wrong.

Tons of ICE vehicles exist with very inaccurate fuel gauges. Particularly older high end super cars.
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      02-20-2020, 12:59 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
You guys are making shit up. My wife drives seven miles a day. It takes her weeks to need gas. If I plugged an EV in overnight on a weekend, she'd be fine. Inevitably her car will need gas when it's 37, windy and rainy and the first two stations I go to will have premium out of order. We already use my car exclusively for road trips, so there's really zero opportunity for EV range anxiety in our situation.
But you have an ICE vehicle. Heck, even your wife has an ICE vehicle. And you no doubt have your reasons for that. Are those made up too?

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Given the number of EV'a just in my community and the fact that I've never seen one on the side of the road, I'd guess they're not freaking out about it either.
People that don't fit the EV use cases aren't buying them - that's why you aren't seeing them stranded on the road.

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So 60's 427 sports cars are my idea of range anxiety.
Yet, in a six or seven hundred mile race, that car will beat the Tesla Model S with a 100kW battery by hours, even though the Tesla would probably smoke it twice over in a drag race. You're not willing to make that type of compromise with the cars in your garage, and neither is anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Yeah, but I had a Miata as an only car for years. With enough desire, you can make almost anything work.
Yep. But most people don't aspire to the minimalist solutions that just gets you by. They have the means to do better than that, to cover other use cases should they arise, to allow for the unforeseen, to ensure they have the best possible tools in a busy life full of uncertainty.

You aren't a minimalist, and neither are most others. That's why you don't have two EVs today, you won't tomorrow, and neither will most other people.
I don't know. We had one car for many years, I rode a bike and took public transit. My wife's next car will almost certainly be an EV and there's probably a greater than average chance that mine will be too.

The current run of 0.5L/cylinder ZF8 cars are all soulless and anodyne, why choose one over the other? An EV more than covers my monthly trip to Dallas and back, if the VW Bus has 250+ miles of range, I'll likely do that.

As for EV proliferation, my little culdesac has about forty houses, so let's call it 85 cars. At last count 15 of those are EV's and I think of the last five new cars, three were EV's. Just running an errand this morning, I would guess 20% of what I saw were EV's and another large share were hybrids. There are areas that have a very heavy adoption rate, just because you're not in one doesn't mean that you've got the entire market sussed out.
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      02-20-2020, 02:04 PM   #27
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I've gotten range anxiety in my M3. I've also experienced a time where my range was no longer a number but said "----".

To say "range anxiety" isn't a thing with an ICE vehicle is wrong.

Tons of ICE vehicles exist with very inaccurate fuel gauges. Particularly older high end super cars.
Sure, but realistically I can drive down the 401 in the red and know I can find a gas station. Range anxiety (charge time anxiety) is a universal complaint regarding EV, nobody talks about it when they are considering a new ICE vehicle do they.
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      02-20-2020, 02:04 PM   #28
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I don't know. We had one car for many years, I rode a bike and took public transit. My wife's next car will almost certainly be an EV and there's probably a greater than average chance that mine will be too.
Exactly. So you see my point. Even as someone who's willing to make some compromises, you are saying its still not a lock that you are getting an EV. When you look at the larger market and extrapolate across what we know to be true about ourselves - creatures of habit, the human tendency of being unwilling to bend - it's pretty clear that it's not going to happen without more work. The EV needs to be able to do what the ICE can do. Otherwise, the vast majority of the population isn't getting on board. To me this is pretty clearly explains today's EV/ICE split.

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As for EV proliferation, my little culdesac has about forty houses, so let's call it 85 cars. At last count 15 of those are EV's and I think of the last five new cars, three were EV's. Just running an errand this morning, I would guess 20% of what I saw were EV's and another large share were hybrids. There are areas that have a very heavy adoption rate, just because you're not in one doesn't mean that you've got the entire market sussed out.
It's under 2% in the US. That's the facts. No need to extrapolate anything. And most of that is still on the coasts. Are the numbers going up? Sure. But a mass exodus isn't happening yet, and to me it's not hard to see why. And that's despite that I've been driving my EV with its modest 115mi range (but only 70 miles in the winter, mind you) for well over a year now.

And FWIW, I spend much of my time in one of the most liberal cities in the midwest, and EVs are pretty darn common in these parts, relatively speaking. That's despite the extremely heavy Big Three influence/bias (only GM has an EV), the anti-Tesla attitude in the state, and a general love for high performance gas-sucking automobiles. So, I know that plenty of people are buying them. It doesn't change the fact that most people aren't, and that there are perfectly valid reasons as to why they aren't.
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      02-20-2020, 02:10 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Sure, but realistically I can drive down the 401 in the red and know I can find a gas station. Range anxiety (charge time anxiety) is a universal complaint regarding EV, nobody talks about it when they are considering a new ICE vehicle do they.
I guess, but another thing to look at is, a lot of people who own EVs aren't the type to travel down rural areas. A few people I know that own Teslas don't even leave the GVA so range anxiety isn't a thing for them.

I wouldn't consider Range Anxiety and Charge time anxiety the same thing. Two different "complaints".

However how many of us wished that our ICE cars filled up even faster than they already do now? I sure wish so.

The main concern is infrastructure which I understand, but EV is new. I'm sure when ICE vehicles were first introduced people had range anxiety as gas stations weren't as common. We're slowly getting the infrastructure needed. Like everything, its not just going to pop up right away.

Look at how many Tesla superchargers exist now compared to 8 years ago.
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      02-20-2020, 02:17 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I don't know. We had one car for many years, I rode a bike and took public transit. My wife's next car will almost certainly be an EV and there's probably a greater than average chance that mine will be too.
Exactly. So you see my point. Even as someone who's willing to make some compromises, you are saying its still not a lock that you are getting an EV. When you look at the larger market and extrapolate across what we know to be true about ourselves - creatures of habit, the human tendency of being unwilling to bend - it's pretty clear that it's not going to happen without more work. The EV needs to be able to do what the ICE can do. Otherwise, the vast majority of the population isn't getting on board. To me this is pretty clearly explains today's EV/ICE split.

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As for EV proliferation, my little culdesac has about forty houses, so let's call it 85 cars. At last count 15 of those are EV's and I think of the last five new cars, three were EV's. Just running an errand this morning, I would guess 20% of what I saw were EV's and another large share were hybrids. There are areas that have a very heavy adoption rate, just because you're not in one doesn't mean that you've got the entire market sussed out.
It's under 2% in the US. That's the facts. No need to extrapolate anything. And most of that is still on the coasts. Are the numbers going up? Sure. But a mass exodus isn't happening yet, and to me it's not hard to see why. And that's despite that I've been driving my EV with its modest 115mi range (but only 70 miles in the winter, mind you) for well over a year now.

And FWIW, I spend much of my time in one of the most liberal cities in the midwest, and EVs are pretty darn common in these parts, relatively speaking. That's despite the extremely heavy Big Three influence/bias (only GM sells an EV here), the anti-Tesla attitude in the state, and a general love for high performance gas-sucking automobiles. So, I know that plenty of people are buying them. It doesn't change the fact that most people aren't, and that there are perfectly valid reasons as to why they aren't.
Oh yeah, let me go fill up my car in my garage. EV's do something that ICE cars don't, there's no catching up to do. And if you read what I said, my wife is a lock on an EV next and I'm about even odds (I've never owned an automatic, but I'm leaning towards replacing my current manual with an older manual car as a weekend toy and an EV for work and errands.) That's not the same thing as 'not certain of getting one.'

And 2% was 1% three years ago. I work in finance, if you'd like me to extrapolate that out a few years, just let me know.

I've lived in the 9th and 11th largest cities in the US the last few years and have seen nothing but continued growth in EV's. It's not just Tesla, I actually see a surprising number of I Types here, as well as plenty of eTrons, a few Taycans already and of course a ton of Bolts and Leaves. Texas is also a state that Tesla can't directly sell to and we don't get the federal incentives, yet they are literally everywhere. Add in the Model Y and you'll clearly see more Teslae than German brands around here.
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      02-20-2020, 02:37 PM   #31
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Oh yeah, let me go fill up my car in my garage. EV's do something that ICE cars don't, there's no catching up to do. And if you read what I said, my wife is a lock on an EV next and I'm about even odds (I've never owned an automatic, but I'm leaning towards replacing my current manual with an older manual car as a weekend toy and an EV for work and errands.) That's not the same thing as 'not certain of getting one.'

I've lived in the 9th and 11th largest cities in the US the last few years and have seen nothing but continued growth in EV's. It's not just Tesla, I actually see a surprising number of I Types here, as well as plenty of eTrons, a few Taycans already and of course a ton of Bolts and Leaves. Texas is also a state that Tesla can't directly sell to and we don't get the federal incentives, yet they are literally everywhere. Add in the Model Y and you'll clearly see more Teslae than German brands around here.
I technically CAN fill up my car in my garage, I just don't. It's how I filled up mowers, and weed eaters, and dirt bikes, etc. Not impossible, just not common. ICE cars currently have, and will continue to have for the foreseeable future, the advantage of a quick refuel at almost LIMITLESS locations, world wide. My M2 takes ~5 minutes to fill to get 250 miles, my Miata takes ~3 minutes for 200 miles, my Ducati takes less than 2 minutes for 150 miles, how long would it take to fill up the battery on a Model3 and for how many miles...? If I get low on fuel, I can simply pull off any highway, and I'm bound to find a couple stations. I can continue this all the way across the country, the world even, irrespective of my route; the same cannot be said for an EV. There ARE still limitations to en EV, even with the growing sales figures and infrastructure.

Which EV are you leaning towards? Why list the Model Y and not the Mach-E? You also have to account for the "cool" factor. Tesla in particular, continues to grow in sales WHY. It's the new THING, it's a status symbol. Same reason that people buy the stupid overpriced q-tip airpods instead of the hundreds of great 100% wireless earbuds on the market, it's a symbol. I have it, and you don't. I've said it before, and I'll say it again, that mentality (IMO), is at least 1/2 of Tesla's sales "tactic." Of all the people I know that have Tesla's, they do it because it's new, it's cool, it's elite, they can show off with their fancy little e-car and draw shit on the iPad or take people out on rides so they can feel how fAsT it is. The overwhelming majority don't care for the EV aspect it.
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      02-20-2020, 02:58 PM   #32
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Oh yeah, let me go fill up my car in my garage. EV's do something that ICE cars don't, there's no catching up to do.
That's not what people want. They want a vehicle that can go a few hundred miles and then be refueled easily in a few minutes. Period. If we could build an EV today that did that, we would. And the reason for that is absolutely elementary - it's because we know that would cause EV adoption to skyrocket quickly. Anything short of that is tough sell, and a long road. That's the way it is.

Is the convenience of filling up at home generally seen as a plus? Sure, of course. But it's clearly not enough to outweigh the drawbacks of range anxiety.

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And 2% was 1% three years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electr...use_by_country

1.9% for plug-ins in the US in 2019

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I work in finance, if you'd like me to extrapolate that out a few years, just let me know.
Nope, but thanks for the offer. I'll continue to look at the data as it comes in.
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      02-20-2020, 08:59 PM   #33
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I still say this filling up at home thing has issues. I live in a large detached house but it has one garage, so if i were to get an EV i need to run a cord outside EVERY FUCKING DAY then roll it up again EVERY FUCKING MORNING, often in freezing weather. Yeah, no thanks.

My trip to work is SFA, i fill up on gas barely twice a month, if that, but an EV would be nothing but a PITA as far as i am concerned.

it only really works for those with a garaged car, after that, the shit rolls down hill real fast.

EV market share in the USA dropped in 2019, not much but it did drop from 2018.

i can see it working in over populated countries (China/india) and postage stamp type places (some euro countries) or where oil subsidizes the Ev market but globally, I still reakon Hybrid is the answer.
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      02-20-2020, 09:06 PM   #34
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I still say this filling up at home thing has issues. I live in a large detached house but it has one garage, so if i were to get an EV i need to run a cord outside EVERY FUCKING DAY then roll it up again EVERY FUCKING MORNING, often in freezing weather. Yeah, no thanks.
This was why I didn't buy an EV for my daily. Albeit, I live in an apartment with a garage, but it's only big enough for my tools + motorcycle + M2. If I got a leaf or something, it would take the M2's spot, which is a no go. If I had more space, it would have been a super high contender. I don't want my good fun nice car sitting our for my shitty electric daily. If I had the room, I wouldn't own a Miata and the M, it would be a Leaf and an M2.
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      02-20-2020, 09:11 PM   #35
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To be clear i feel there is legit market for EV's but if they top 15% to mayyybe 20% in the USA i'd be surprised.
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      02-20-2020, 11:39 PM   #36
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It's under 2% in the US. That's the facts.
Is that including plug-in hybrids? What is the market share for BEV?
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      02-21-2020, 09:48 AM   #37
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To be clear i feel there is legit market for EV's but if they top 15% to mayyybe 20% in the USA i'd be surprised.
Probably fair, until quick charging is realistic and coal isn't a primary power source for large parts of the eastern seaboard.

Still about three times more prevalent than manuals are now, and that number certainly isn't going to grow.
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      02-21-2020, 09:53 AM   #38
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It's under 2% in the US. That's the facts.
Is that including plug-in hybrids? What is the market share for BEV?
No, that's BEV. Combined hybrid and plug in hybrid represent another roughly 4%. Puts into perspective how people can talk about Priuses being everywhere but they want to pretend that EV's aren't selling well, yet they're already nearly half of the volume of hybrid sales.
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      02-21-2020, 10:30 AM   #39
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I can’t watch this video at work, so lemme just ask - does “we drove them until they DIED” mean that they end with the cars catching fire?
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      02-22-2020, 11:08 AM   #40
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On range anxiety... It is present with ICE. As a matter of fact I use ICE range anxiety as a benchmark in discussions about EV range anxiety all the time.

When do you experience range anxiety with an ICE?

For me the feeling of anxiety occurs probably ~2 gallons left of fuel, or ~50 miles of range. At that point my fuel gauge is definitely in the red and at the very bottom. It's extremely relevant to point out this uncomfortable feeling occurs in an environment where I'm confident I can quickly refuel nearly anyplace.

Using the above as the benchmark...

If I'm driving a vehicle that has far fewer places to go to achieve more range (charge); and will take more time to acquire that additional range; then anxiety will necessarily become a factor sooner.

Keep in mind, not everyone is as confident as I am. My mother (in her 70s) is on the other end of the spectrum; where she gets anxious when she gets to 1/3 of a tank!

I think with an EV you need to consider required range like a pilot would. You should have 200-300% of the range you need before your trip. If you're driving 60 miles tomorrow; then you need to leave with 120-180 miles of range.
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      02-23-2020, 08:54 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by SteveinArizona View Post
It can be. I remember years ago taking a back road from one city to another and realizing that there were no gas stations on the road. I ended up turning everything off and driving at 50 mph and praying that I would get to a gas station. I did manage to get to one.

So there is less range anxiety with an ICE but there can still be some.
But how long did it take you to recharge? And had you be judicious, you could have filled up in a few minutes at the last gas station you saw.

Just sayin'
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      02-23-2020, 09:18 AM   #42
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I've gotten range anxiety in my M3. I've also experienced a time where my range was no longer a number but said "----".

To say "range anxiety" isn't a thing with an ICE vehicle is wrong.

Tons of ICE vehicles exist with very inaccurate fuel gauges. Particularly older high end super cars.
Come on man you are making up BS. I live in a rural area and drive into Northern Virginia 5 days a week. The nearest gas station is 20 miles from my house on my way to work. I rarely let the gauge get to empty because either going into work or coming home, I can recharge any of my ICE vehicles in 5 minutes and have 400 miles of range. I drive all over West Virginia, rural Pennsylvania, rural New York state, New England, Southern Virginia, the Carolinas, and have taken 10 long-distance motorcycle trips in the past 30 years, and have never run out of fuel in any of my ICE vehicles. Gas stations are literally everywhere.

Any time anyone lets their ICE get low on fuel, it's because they are not paying attention; it has nothing to do with kWh storage capacity of the drivetrain or the availability of recharging stations, or the speed of adding range back into the drivetrain.

In the USA, ICE vehicles do not have range anxiety if you are not a dumbass.

And your last bit of BS... either get it fixed, or simply use the trip odometer. LOL
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      02-23-2020, 10:37 AM   #43
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Well, in a few isolated situations, it is. Going by the numbers, the GT500 is about 225 miles per "reacharge", using it's average mpg. Using the highway average for the entire tank, it only increases to 288. This is partially due to a tiny fuel tank that they put on the mustang, no doubt to keep the weight down, but not really big enough to give the platform the flexibility it needs IMO. These situations are usually far and few between though and unless you are frequenting real remote areas, such as in Nevada, Utah, etc., it's really not an issue 99% of the time.
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      02-23-2020, 11:05 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Well, in a few isolated situations, it is. Going by the numbers, the GT500 is about 225 miles per "reacharge", using it's average mpg. Using the highway average for the entire tank, it only increases to 288. This is partially due to a tiny fuel tank that they put on the mustang, no doubt to keep the weight down, but not really big enough to give the platform the flexibility it needs IMO. These situations are usually far and few between though and unless you are frequenting real remote areas, such as in Nevada, Utah, etc., it's really not an issue 99% of the time.
I ride a 1999 Honda Valkyrie Interstate. 6.9 gal fuel capacity and 32 MPG. I've been all over the US on it, Arizona, Colorado, Wyoming, North Dakota, etc., and never had an issue. And I ride it in mostly rural areas when touring.

If I got an EV for my daily, I'd have range anxiety every day between late November and late April. To try and even equate ICE range anxiety (because you didn't take the few minutes to top off the tank) to EV is a effing joke.
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