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      02-20-2020, 02:28 PM   #1519
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The 2021 3.0 is going to be a seriously quick car. Should be a heads up race with a Mustang GT/Camaro SS auto.

Reminds me of a budget Mercedes GT and not much slower than a base one at that.
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      02-20-2020, 06:54 PM   #1520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Toyota isn't a lot better but they have their reputation for reliability (which is largely due to re-using old tech) to fall back on and their new interiors at least look last gen as opposed to Nissans that look last decade. The latest Corolla and Camry aren't too shabby for entry level transportation and at least Toyota hasn't gone CVT crazy like Nissan, Subaru, Honda. The Japanese have all largely gone conservative over the last few decades as they have been last to jump on turbocharging, direct injection, advanced automatic gearboxes, etc. It's why I'm driving German cars almost exclusively as I don't care for domestics and most Japanese offerings are dated drivetrains and tech. They have totally left the door open for the Koreans who keep chipping away at their market shares.
I don't really think Toyota is targeting enthusiasts. It's an appliance to get from a to b. Most people just want it to be cheap, reliable and get decent gas mileage. They don't know or care about turbos or CVT vs DCT.

I actually got a 2020 Corolla as a rental in CA for like 2 weeks. I liked the little car so much ended up buying one when I got home. Wanted another car as the girlfriend doesn't like to drive the F350 or the C7 and honestly I don't like driving the F350 around town either and I only take out the C7 on nice days. Was looking at Accords also but just ended up getting a 2020 Corolla, whatever the basic package is, only has wheels and keyless entry.

Honestly for like 18k new I think it's a great little car if you're not an enthusiast. I mean it has more features than I would have expected in a basic Corolla. Apple carplay, adaptive cruise, bsm, lane keep assist, led headlights (freaking most brands still put halogen lights on their entry level cars). Has enough power for the average person and gets 30+ mpg with no turbos or anything like that to worry about. I also find the new interior to actually look pretty good, I actually like it more than the Camry interior.

Saw like 3 supras at the track this weekend, I think the design is growing on me. I think I would take the supra over the Z4.
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      02-21-2020, 01:45 AM   #1521
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Originally Posted by Fitz335 View Post
N55 does not sound better than an N54.

Also the n54 had forged internals from the beginning so BMW actually took a step back with the original n55s.
XuTV already said it, but the N55 is widely known to sound better than the N54 and S55 for the reasons he mentioned.

As far as the forged crank, it only matters if you’re making crazy horsepower through mods, and you can always swap one in from a newer N55. The only reason to really pick an N54 over an N55 is if you’re doing some kind of bonkers 800hp build, although nowadays even that isn’t certain. The oil distribution of the N55 is better.

As far as the Supra is concerned, I’ve now seen 5 of them, and I just think it’s overwrought. It’s like they threw in a million creases, folds and (fake) vents in order to confuse the mind enough not to focus on a single bad element. I’d still rather buy a used Cayman, since we’re not even getting a real Toyota’s reliability.
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      02-24-2020, 01:38 PM   #1522
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I was at one of the local Toyota dealers this weekend having my Tacoma serviced, and I counted 10 Supras on the lot. This particular dealer was insanely busy with service appoints and shoppers that day, but even with that much showroom traffic, I didn't notice a single person interested in any of the Supras other than myself.
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      02-24-2020, 02:44 PM   #1523
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Originally Posted by JasonCSU View Post
I was at one of the local Toyota dealers this weekend having my Tacoma serviced, and I counted 10 Supras on the lot. This particular dealer was insanely busy with service appoints and shoppers that day, but even with that much showroom traffic, I didn't notice a single person interested in any of the Supras other than myself.
Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.
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      02-24-2020, 02:46 PM   #1524
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Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.
I'm already starting to see discounts of 5-7% here in the Bay area
The car I went to see in person only to realize how fast&furious the fake vents are was marked up $15k
The same white Supra premium is now $4500 off
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      02-24-2020, 04:01 PM   #1525
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This is playing out almost exactly like BMW's own E86 Z4 M Coupe launch.

The mighty E86 Coupe was launched in March of 2006 to much fanfare. "OMG S54 in a 200 lbs lighter chassis than the E46 M3? With more than 2X the structural rigidity? Coupled with BMW's greatest steering rack ever from the E36 M3? Sign me the f**k up!" I remember walking in to my favorite BMW dealership to my favorite BMW General Sales Manager and said "I want one and I want it now." He smiled at me and asked how much over MSRP was I willing to pay for the one they had coming in 6 weeks.

I balked at the idea of paying mark-up, so I placed an order for one at MSRP. To this day still the ONLY car I have ever paid more than factory invoice for in more in more than 20 years of car buying and ownership experience. Deposit was accepted in March. Production date was slated for August...Because EVERY SINGLE ONE of their allocation has been spoke for until then, and they're the number 3 BMW dealership in the country so they actually had 2 coming in every month.

When I picked it up on first week of September, I have only ever seen one other Z4 M Coupe IRL outside of dealership lots. Up until the month of maybe early October, in a 100 mile radius in the highest BMW dealership density area in the world, there's maybe 2-3 available on all the lots combined. We're talking about 10-12 BMW dealership within a 50 mile radius. Every one of them demanded a $10,000 mark-up.

Spoke with the same General Sales Manager near the end of November, because I wanted to get an E92 for my wife to replace her E60 545i (because, you know, REPAIR BILLS). Took a walk through their lot and I counted 6 Z4 M Coupes on the floor. So I asked him about it, and grimly he told me that they couldn't give them away. In fact, there's a $5,000 trunk cash to move them (at the time. The trunk cash increased to $10,000 by next April), and that BMW may have totally mis-calculated the demand and started producing them at a much higher pace (there were total of 3xx built in 2006 for world wide consumption. They basically doubled the production volume for 2007 and 2008 to come to 4,xxx total made if memory serves). By late 2007 they were all being sold for invoice MINUS the $10,000 trunk cash, making them around $48K out the door for one that's minimally optioned. I paid $56K MSRP for mine plus nearly 10% tax.

By all means, the Zupra is a fantastic car. So was the Z4 M Coupe. It's just, really, the market for a 2 seater sport car is depressed and often over estimated. There really isn't that much room here for more than a few cars per segment, and you've got pressure from the lower end in the form of a Miata and the Toyobaru, and spend another $5 grand in features and you're in mid engine C8 Corvette range. In the same pricing category you've got far more practical solutions that are nearly as fast if not faster in Crapstangs and Mullet-maros, both have back seats and far more sensible if it's going to be your ONLY car.

Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.
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      02-24-2020, 04:09 PM   #1526
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Originally Posted by spiceyxi View Post
Are they still trying to get MSRP+? I can't wait to see how they handle the 385hp and 335hp versions sitting on the lot next to each other.

I am guessing they are, but I also didn't ask. The place was so busy that I was never approached by any sales people while I was looking around. I was curious and wanted to ask the same question.
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      02-24-2020, 04:22 PM   #1527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
This is playing out almost exactly like BMW's own E86 Z4 M Coupe launch.

The mighty E86 Coupe was launched in March of 2006 to much fanfare. "OMG S54 in a 200 lbs lighter chassis than the E46 M3? With more than 2X the structural rigidity? Coupled with BMW's greatest steering rack ever from the E36 M3? Sign me the f**k up!" I remember walking in to my favorite BMW dealership to my favorite BMW General Sales Manager and said "I want one and I want it now." He smiled at me and asked how much over MSRP was I willing to pay for the one they had coming in 6 weeks.

I balked at the idea of paying mark-up, so I placed an order for one at MSRP. To this day still the ONLY car I have ever paid more than factory invoice for in more in more than 20 years of car buying and ownership experience. Deposit was accepted in March. Production date was slated for August...Because EVERY SINGLE ONE of their allocation has been spoke for until then, and they're the number 3 BMW dealership in the country so they actually had 2 coming in every month.

When I picked it up on first week of September, I have only ever seen one other Z4 M Coupe IRL outside of dealership lots. Up until the month of maybe early October, in a 100 mile radius in the highest BMW dealership density area in the world, there's maybe 2-3 available on all the lots combined. We're talking about 10-12 BMW dealership within a 50 mile radius. Every one of them demanded a $10,000 mark-up.

Spoke with the same General Sales Manager near the end of November, because I wanted to get an E92 for my wife to replace her E60 545i (because, you know, REPAIR BILLS). Took a walk through their lot and I counted 6 Z4 M Coupes on the floor. So I asked him about it, and grimly he told me that they couldn't give them away. In fact, there's a $5,000 trunk cash to move them (at the time. The trunk cash increased to $10,000 by next April), and that BMW may have totally mis-calculated the demand and started producing them at a much higher pace (there were total of 3xx built in 2006 for world wide consumption. They basically doubled the production volume for 2007 and 2008 to come to 4,xxx total made if memory serves). By late 2007 they were all being sold for invoice MINUS the $10,000 trunk cash, making them around $48K out the door for one that's minimally optioned. I paid $56K MSRP for mine plus nearly 10% tax.

By all means, the Zupra is a fantastic car. So was the Z4 M Coupe. It's just, really, the market for a 2 seater sport car is depressed and often over estimated. There really isn't that much room here for more than a few cars per segment, and you've got pressure from the lower end in the form of a Miata and the Toyobaru, and spend another $5 grand in features and you're in mid engine C8 Corvette range. In the same pricing category you've got far more practical solutions that are nearly as fast if not faster in Crapstangs and Mullet-maros, both have back seats and far more sensible if it's going to be your ONLY car.

Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.

I think you are spot on. Had I not bought my 135 back in 2008, I very well may have gone for a Z4 M Coupe. I imagine there would be more interest in the Supra if a 6MT were available, but that's just my speculation.

I love the current Miata in the Club trim level and would probably go that route if I were shopping, but if the Supra was about $10k less and available with a manual, it would absolutely make my short list.
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      02-24-2020, 10:22 PM   #1528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
Plus direct competition from BMW in the forms of the E46 M3 for the Z4 M Coupe (2 more seats, $8,000 less MSRP) and M2 Competition (2 more seats, marginally more expensive). Had they (BMW and Yota) priced both the Z4 M Coupe and the Supra about $10,000 less, I believe there's a legitimate market that exists that DO want a funky little sporty car like this.

But not big enough to support selling more than a few thousand copies a year, IMO.
I saw all the text and wasn't going to read. Saw you posted and read the entire post.

I think you are correct.

I loved the Z4 when it came out and desperately to buy one, but just finished college at the time and couldn't justify it. I ended up getting a Z4 coupe several years later. Love the car and I am currently feeling the market for what is next. If I was going to spend ~$60k it is hard not to choose the M2 or the C8. I'll likely land on a used Jag Ftype R or C7 GS for a bit under that mark.

I like the Supra, but not enough to buy it. I really hate all of the fake vents on it. Maybe when depreciation takes it till on the price...
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      02-24-2020, 10:36 PM   #1529
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People keep saying they rather get a $60k C8. I don’t know about anyone else, but I don’t buy stripped $60k sports cars. A nicely equipped C8 is more in the $75-80k range and that’s a good amount more than $55k Supra.
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      02-25-2020, 08:16 AM   #1530
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Emissions are barring the 2021 Supra from Euro markets with full power, will only get 340 instead of 382... Womp womp womp.

https://carbuzz.com/news/europe-bans...nnoying-reason
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      02-25-2020, 09:00 AM   #1531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
People keep saying they rather get a $60k C8. I donít know about anyone else, but I donít buy stripped $60k sports cars. A nicely equipped C8 is more in the $75-80k range and thatís a good amount more than $55k Supra.
I am probably a bad example because I DID buy a loaded up C7 Corvette with every single options ticked, but thatís only because it was one of the few 7 speed manuals available within the LA Metropolitan area. One or two more options and the MSRP would have rested $90k

If I were to spec out one RIGHT NOW, I couldnít because thereís no manual option, but I would have gone with the Z51 1LT base model ($65K) and nothing else. If you watch Corvette sales trends, youíll find over 60% of all Corvettes sold are base model, base trim, bare essentials cars.

The Grand Sport I bought sat on the lot because it had ALL the options ticked except for the Heritage package and CF aeros. At $88k it was way beyond what typical Corvette shoppers were comfortable with.

Frankly I can live without the bulk of the amenities that comes with the upper trims, since a base Corvette comes very well appointed to begin with. On a BMW? Sure, Iíd load up on some option packages because they nickle and dime you with features. But I guarantee you more than 50% of C8 orders fall between the absolute base $60K to minimally equipped around $65k.

After all, the. VAST majority of Corvettes are just garage queens and few can tell the difference between a 1LT and 3LT with front axle lift from a glance.
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      02-25-2020, 09:32 AM   #1532
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Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I am probably a bad example because I DID buy a loaded up C7 Corvette with every single options ticked, but thatís only because it was one of the few 7 speed manuals available within the LA Metropolitan area. One or two more options and the MSRP would have rested $90k

If I were to spec out one RIGHT NOW, I couldnít because thereís no manual option, but I would have gone with the Z51 1LT base model ($65K) and nothing else. If you watch Corvette sales trends, youíll find over 60% of all Corvettes sold are base model, base trim, bare essentials cars.

The Grand Sport I bought sat on the lot because it had ALL the options ticked except for the Heritage package and CF aeros. At $88k it was way beyond what typical Corvette shoppers were comfortable with.

Frankly I can live without the bulk of the amenities that comes with the upper trims, since a base Corvette comes very well appointed to begin with. On a BMW? Sure, Iíd load up on some option packages because they nickle and dime you with features. But I guarantee you more than 50% of C8 orders fall between the absolute base $60K to minimally equipped around $65k.

After all, the. VAST majority of Corvettes are just garage queens and few can tell the difference between a 1LT and 3LT with front axle lift from a glance.
C7 sales trends have been towards 1LT in the last few years, but enthusiasts generally buy during the first couple years of release and those have trended towards 2LT and 3LT. After all, look at the initial C8 build schedule and they were only building loaded 2LT and 3LT models.
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      02-25-2020, 09:48 AM   #1533
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alex2364 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK View Post
I am probably a bad example because I DID buy a loaded up C7 Corvette with every single options ticked, but that’s only because it was one of the few 7 speed manuals available within the LA Metropolitan area. One or two more options and the MSRP would have rested $90k

If I were to spec out one RIGHT NOW, I couldn’t because there’s no manual option, but I would have gone with the Z51 1LT base model ($65K) and nothing else. If you watch Corvette sales trends, you’ll find over 60% of all Corvettes sold are base model, base trim, bare essentials cars.

The Grand Sport I bought sat on the lot because it had ALL the options ticked except for the Heritage package and CF aeros. At $88k it was way beyond what typical Corvette shoppers were comfortable with.

Frankly I can live without the bulk of the amenities that comes with the upper trims, since a base Corvette comes very well appointed to begin with. On a BMW? Sure, I’d load up on some option packages because they nickle and dime you with features. But I guarantee you more than 50% of C8 orders fall between the absolute base $60K to minimally equipped around $65k.

After all, the. VAST majority of Corvettes are just garage queens and few can tell the difference between a 1LT and 3LT with front axle lift from a glance.
C7 sales trends have been towards 1LT in the last few years, but enthusiasts generally buy during the first couple years of release and those have trended towards 2LT and 3LT. After all, look at the initial C8 build schedule and they were only building loaded 2LT and 3LT models.
Wait, they're starting production with the highest margin models? Surely that's exactly what buyers asked for and not in any way a business decision.
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      02-25-2020, 10:07 AM   #1534
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Wait, they're starting production with the highest margin models? Surely that's exactly what buyers asked for and not in any way a business decision.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic but majority of C8 orders are not 1LT models. This is the initial build schedule before the GM strike changed everything.
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      02-25-2020, 10:33 AM   #1535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Wait, they're starting production with the highest margin models? Surely that's exactly what buyers asked for and not in any way a business decision.
Not sure if you're being sarcastic but majority of C8 orders are not 1LT models. This is the initial build schedule before the GM strike changed everything.
Yes, very sarcastic. Are those customer or dealer orders? I've bought plenty of cars that are heavy on options and know that those cars sell for the same price as strippers. In other words, options are awesome on used cars.
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      02-25-2020, 10:47 AM   #1536
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Yes, very sarcastic. Are those customer or dealer orders? I've bought plenty of cars that are heavy on options and know that those cars sell for the same price as strippers. In other words, options are awesome on used cars.
Some dealers already sold out their 2020 allocations and have waiting lists for MY2021.
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