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      11-19-2015, 12:59 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fcman View Post
Why the hell is everyone talking about leaf springs? The Camaro is on coils, as it has been for years and years.
Hey, if viffer thinks the Camaro is on leaf springs then why not let him think so? Then wonder why it handles so much better than other cars with far "superior" suspension

As far as I know, Camaro's haven't had a leaf spring since what? The 80s? Then the 3rd and 4th gen used a solid rear axle, trailing arms, subframe bracers, etc. Then the 5th gen uses a modern independent rear suspension setup and regular a arms, coils, etc for the front.

The Vette on the other hand still uses a "leaf spring" but not like what you think in a truck or what a 2nd gen Camaro has per say. But a single (I believe) transverse leaf spring or monoleaf spring (something like that) that is used across the rear suspension from one side to the other. Same for the front.
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      11-19-2015, 10:25 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Leaf springs.

:: drops mic ::
Huh?...
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      11-19-2015, 10:26 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante375 View Post
Hey, if viffer thinks the Camaro is on leaf springs then why not let him think so? Then wonder why it handles so much better than other cars with far "superior" suspension

As far as I know, Camaro's haven't had a leaf spring since what? The 80s? Then the 3rd and 4th gen used a solid rear axle, trailing arms, subframe bracers, etc. Then the 5th gen uses a modern independent rear suspension setup and regular a arms, coils, etc for the front.

The Vette on the other hand still uses a "leaf spring" but not like what you think in a truck or what a 2nd gen Camaro has per say. But a single (I believe) transverse leaf spring or monoleaf spring (something like that) that is used across the rear suspension from one side to the other. Same for the front.
I think he either thought this thread was about Vette or he has no clue what he is talking about.
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      11-19-2015, 11:44 PM   #70
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I just noticed this Camaro doesn't even have a rotary knob for its LCD screen. This makes it difficult to reach and use while driving because touch control is required. And the air vents are too low. Also the seatbelt blocks rear access and there is surprising lack of headroom there considering there is no swooping roofline like in M4. The car is a bit of an ergonomic disaster. Moreover: to spec it up to M235 levels you need to order leather, magnetic suspension, auto gearbox and dualstage exhaust. So it looks Camaro is not such a bargain after all.
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      11-19-2015, 11:57 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
Moreover: to spec it up to M235 levels you need to order leather, magnetic suspension, auto gearbox and dualstage exhaust. So it looks Camaro is not such a bargain after all.
What are you talking about. 2SS with those options you state comes in at $46.3k. A comparable M235i (don't forget to add limited slip diff) comes in at $55.2k. Almost $9k difference. Even then M235i doesn't have heads up display or ventilated seats. That is a big price difference and the Camaro 2SS will curb stomp a M235i around the track.
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      11-20-2015, 02:07 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
I just noticed this Camaro doesn't even have a rotary knob for its LCD screen. This makes it difficult to reach and use while driving because touch control is required. And the air vents are too low. Also the seatbelt blocks rear access and there is surprising lack of headroom there considering there is no swooping roofline like in M4. The car is a bit of an ergonomic disaster. Moreover: to spec it up to M235 levels you need to order leather, magnetic suspension, auto gearbox and dualstage exhaust. So it looks Camaro is not such a bargain after all.
The controls for the Camaro are on the steering wheel, better than bmw because it gives you more control over the audio.

Loaded m235 is around 55k.
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      11-20-2015, 08:12 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vigilante375 View Post
Well how can a lowly Camaro SS edge out over a AMG GT S?
You are missing the "Value".

I also think the new Ferrari 488 is a better car than the Camaro SS......

Like it or not here is how they judge them. Of course with any selection of the "best" many won't like the criteria or the ultimate winner that is selected.

Quote:
The Criteria
Advancement in Design
Quality execution of exterior and interior styling; innovation in vehicle packaging; good selection and use of materials.

Engineering Excellence
Integrity of total vehicle concept and execution, clever solutions to packaging, manufacturing, and dynamics issues; use of cost-effective technologies that benefit the consumer.

Efficiency
Low energy consumption and carbon footprint relative to the vehicle’s competitive set.

Safety
Primary safety — the vehicle’s ability to help the driver avoid a crash — as well as secondary safety measures that protect its occupants from harm during a crash.

Value
Price and equipment levels measured against those of vehicles in the same market segment.

Performance of Intended Function
How well the vehicle does the job its designers and product planners intended.
I am guessing you don't agree with the criteria they use for their award?
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Last edited by David70; 11-20-2015 at 08:56 AM..
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      11-20-2015, 11:43 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
Moreover: to spec it up to M235 levels you need to order leather, magnetic suspension, auto gearbox and dualstage exhaust. So it looks Camaro is not such a bargain after all.
Ok I was kinda nodding my head about the ergo stuff but after this statement I can't tell if you're just trolling. You're not honestly suggesting the M235i is in the same league as this car, right? It's an M4 beater for M235i money (when fully loaded), how is that not a bargain? And why do you NEED an auto and active exhaust?
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      11-20-2015, 12:25 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Depends... is a C7 interior good in your opinion?
No, it was actually a total letdown, especially after hearing GM acknowledged the C5 and C6 interiors were subpar and put a lot of effort into the C7 interior. It's certainly improved, but nothing I would call 'good'.

I rode in a friends 2011 Camaro and the amount of hard plastic surfaces in that car made me feel like I was trapped inside of a blacked out Tic Tac container.
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      11-20-2015, 12:46 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Kyle B View Post
No, it was actually a total letdown, especially after hearing GM acknowledged the C5 and C6 interiors were subpar and put a lot of effort into the C7 interior. It's certainly improved, but nothing I would call 'good'.

I rode in a friends 2011 Camaro and the amount of hard plastic surfaces in that car made me feel like I was trapped inside of a blacked out Tic Tac container.
You mean like most BMWs? Last time I checked, it also had lots of plastic and the buttons aren't made of precious gems either.

Most people that sat in my Camaro said "wow, this looks like a fighter jet!".
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      11-20-2015, 02:07 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheelwright View Post
I just noticed this Camaro doesn't even have a rotary knob for its LCD screen. This makes it difficult to reach and use while driving because touch control is required. And the air vents are too low. Also the seatbelt blocks rear access and there is surprising lack of headroom there considering there is no swooping roofline like in M4. The car is a bit of an ergonomic disaster. Moreover: to spec it up to M235 levels you need to order leather, magnetic suspension, auto gearbox and dualstage exhaust. So it looks Camaro is not such a bargain after all.
Cars are going more so towards that with the touchscreen's in the cars. I hate that but thats what "people" want. And spec it to M235 levels? Only thing you need is MRS and maybe leather and up the price by $8k......Auto and dual stage exhaust (only adds sound) is not a necessity. The SS beats the M235i in every performance category but a good bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
You are missing the "Value".

I also think the new Ferrari 488 is a better car than the Camaro SS......

Like it or not here is how they judge them. Of course with any selection of the "best" many won't like the criteria or the ultimate winner that is selected.

I am guessing you don't agree with the criteria they use for their award?
Well that criteria is kinda half and half for what I see. I do see the value of the car. I do. It seems they are more Chevy biased now, which I don't mind. They used to be BMW biased right? I would like to see the score sheet though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
You mean like most BMWs? Last time I checked, it also had lots of plastic and the buttons aren't made of precious gems either.

Most people that sat in my Camaro said "wow, this looks like a fighter jet!".
When I was looking for a new car in 2012, I was set on a Mustang 5.0 or Camaro SS. Didn't like the Ford dealer I had to deal with and when I sat down inside a 2SS, I was turned off. Front end felt like a boat, stupid plastic from the door across the dash to the other door (which I found out later the 1SS doesn't have), didn't like the center console stuff, trunk was big but had a small opening, back was cramped (my 92 Camaro has more room), hard to see out the back, etc. So needless to say I starting looking at other cars.

BMW interior isn't anything like a Camaro interior. But Chevy uses way more.
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      11-20-2015, 03:42 PM   #78
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The plastics are there in BMW interiors. BMW applies that soft rubber coating to hide the hard plastics. You know, the stuff that scratches off in two years.
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      11-23-2015, 07:26 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by saleen556 View Post
Best part of this is that the 17 stingray will most likely get a nice HP bump :-)
I'm wondering what the mood is in the corvette wing of gm hq's.
"One of the best drivers cars" had to ruffle some feathers down the hall.
You know, now that they fixed the interior, maybe it's time to use a suspension design from the last 60 years. I know they're transverse and all, but let's ditch the composite leaf springs already.
Why should they? It's working.
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      11-24-2015, 06:50 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Arrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by saleen556 View Post
Best part of this is that the 17 stingray will most likely get a nice HP bump :-)
I'm wondering what the mood is in the corvette wing of gm hq's.
"One of the best drivers cars" had to ruffle some feathers down the hall.
You know, now that they fixed the interior, maybe it's time to use a suspension design from the last 60 years. I know they're transverse and all, but let's ditch the composite leaf springs already.
Why should they? It's working.
Because most track rats replace it anyway and it also removes the one excuse the Internet continues to use for downplaying the overall greatness that the Corvette has achieved. Irrelevant, sure. But just like improving the interior has helped, removing the transverse leaf springs would help remove any excuses people have for dismissing a great bargain in performance.
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      11-24-2015, 11:44 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Because most track rats replace it anyway and it also removes the one excuse the Internet continues to use for downplaying the overall greatness that the Corvette has achieved. Irrelevant, sure. But just like improving the interior has helped, removing the transverse leaf springs would help remove any excuses people have for dismissing a great bargain in performance.
And the Z06 beat the Porsche Turbo S and a plethora of other vehicles, coming within one tenth of a second of the Ferrari F12, pulling some of the highest lateral Gs they've ever seen around tracks. That and all sorts of other people license their magnetic suspension from them. Yeah, I think they know something about suspension these days.
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      11-24-2015, 11:48 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Because most track rats replace it anyway and it also removes the one excuse the Internet continues to use for downplaying the overall greatness that the Corvette has achieved. Irrelevant, sure. But just like improving the interior has helped, removing the transverse leaf springs would help remove any excuses people have for dismissing a great bargain in performance.
And the Z06 beat the Porsche Turbo S and a plethora of other vehicles, coming within one tenth of a second of the Ferrari F12, pulling some of the highest lateral Gs they've ever seen around tracks. That and all sorts of other people license their magnetic suspension from them. Yeah, I think they know something about suspension these days.
Agreed, it's mostly semantics. I don't really care, and suppose if you removed them, it would just be pushrods that became the next target.
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      11-24-2015, 02:51 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Agreed, it's mostly semantics. I don't really care, and suppose if you removed them, it would just be pushrods that became the next target.
Exactly, despite how light the engine is, how low it's CG is, how much tq it develops with the higher displacement to weight ratio it has, etc. Efficiency requirements may have have signed it's eventual death certificate, but there are a bunch of advantages to the design and good reasons why it's used.
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      11-24-2015, 03:22 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Golden Arrow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo
Quote:
Originally Posted by saleen556 View Post
Best part of this is that the 17 stingray will most likely get a nice HP bump :-)
I'm wondering what the mood is in the corvette wing of gm hq's.
"One of the best drivers cars" had to ruffle some feathers down the hall.
You know, now that they fixed the interior, maybe it's time to use a suspension design from the last 60 years. I know they're transverse and all, but let's ditch the composite leaf springs already.
Why should they? It's working.
Because most track rats replace it anyway and it also removes the one excuse the Internet continues to use for downplaying the overall greatness that the Corvette has achieved. Irrelevant, sure. But just like improving the interior has helped, removing the transverse leaf springs would help remove any excuses people have for dismissing a great bargain in performance.
I like that people criticize Corvette for its pushrods and leaf springs. It makes it even more meaningful when it demolishes the competition.
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      11-24-2015, 05:11 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Exactly, despite how light the engine is, how low it's CG is, how much tq it develops with the higher displacement to weight ratio it has, etc.
I love the morons who criticize the pushrod motor for being "old tech" when the DOHC motor came out almost 40 years earlier.

Then you get the next group of idiots who use the displacement argument. Yes, the pushrod motor may be 6L next to your DOHC 4L. Then they don't want to hear that the pushrod motor they are comparing is lighter, smaller packaging, makes more power AND is more fuel efficient. Who gives a crap if it has a 30L displacement if it is externally smaller, lighter, more powerful and more efficient?
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      11-29-2015, 07:09 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gthal View Post
Putting on my flame suit

If people can put aside badge status, the C7 Corvette and the Camaro are absolutely fantastic cars. We pay such a premium for a German badge and the "perceived" prestige factor to drive a car that really isn't better and, in many cases, is actually not as capable in performance and also feel. Yes, I said it... feel

I miss my C7. It was an amazing performance car, involving, fast, connected, incredible performance and a great track car too. As much as I love my M4, if I didn't need a back seat I would still be driving a Stingray... or a Z06 for the same cost as my M4. The new Camaro is now similar with a backseat. I don't love the style, but that's subjective, otherwise I might buy one... especially given it weighs about the same as the M3/4. That's crazy IMO... GM should get full credit.
Not to flame, but if you loved the Stingray so much, why not get the SS?
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      11-29-2015, 07:22 AM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
Apples vs. oranges, man. But good for you. I'd get a used Cayman S before any 'vette. I won't bore you with the myriad of reasons why (transverse leaf spring notwithstanding. It's still a leaf spring.).
Dude, you are clueless. The Vette's leaf spring provides spring force to the suspension in an entirely different way than the traditional longitudinal leaf spring you have in your head like the ones used on pickup trucks.
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      11-29-2015, 08:13 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Not to flame, but if you loved the Stingray so much, why not get the SS?
I loved the Stingray... didn't love the lack of rear seat. I also love my BMW's and they fit better for me today. I always buy cars that interest me and fit my needs the best... regardless of anything else. I don't love the seating position and view from the Camaro... or the retro'ish dash... so it isn't a car I really want but that isn't to say it isn't an amazing car.

My point, really, was that people shouldn't dismiss cars simply because of their brand or some antiquated or snobbish views.
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