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      08-25-2020, 01:20 AM   #23
msm2000uk
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Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
C'mon, dude--that last part is codswallup. If BMW want to know, they'll know. Read on before you get mad at me; perhaps I'll convince you... perhaps not.

// tl;dr-->gobs of technical drivel follows


I don't agree here but this is my subjective opinion--subjective because *I don't personally* know what BMW does as a a matter of course for every single warranty repair. However, I do know what's technically plausible since that's what I do for a living... albeit for a different operating system.

So that said and to your point on pleading ignorance with BMW: this assumes they accept the burden of proof... because it's a moot point if they don't. For me, I don't think that BMW will accept the burden of proof when they 1) can't explain a given failure and 2) can attribute it to aftermarket mods--they'll say no and push the burden back on the customer. That's purely my opinion, though.

You can't *bury* code--this doesn't mean anything in the realm of technical reality. As an industry, we no longer run arbitrary code--especially in a boot chain--rather, we sign each binary (binary is geek-speak for an executable file) as a unit which results in a cryptographically-unique signature. That signature is then used to identify and prove legitimacy in a larger chain of trust. Each binary within the chain is enlightened with the cryptographic signature of the next binary in the chain. A binary will only hand-off to the next binary once its signature has been validated and the binary deemed trustworthy. Change one BIT of any binary and the signature is radically changed... as a result, the boot path fails (well, it fails if that's the desired outcome as it is with general-purpose operating systems; if it's not a general-purpose OS--as is likely the case with a car's OS--they'll probably log it rather than fail). Intercepting and injecting binaries into this chain for malicious purposes is, to date, thought to be computationally infeasible hence the recent popularity of so-called side channel attacks.

To explain how BMW can preserve and know what we might have done over time, you'd need to understand what a TPM is; what a PCR is; how PCRs are extended; what a chain of trust is; what PKI is; how asymmetric crypto works; how code is signed, etc. Once someone understands these core crypto technologies, they'll understand why claims of "they can't tell" or "they don't know" are unlikely to say the last (I say unlikely because I don't know how much of this BMW has implemented).


2 times is wildly statistically insignificant; even 152 times is. I also suspect most warranty claims aren't downstream of the drivetrain--rather, they're power seat issues or AC issues.


Wrt/ "BMW usually just wipe the ECU": that's not remotely representative of my firsthand experience with any of my Ms nor does it make rational sense to me. It's all software these days--human beings attach the cables and magic happens. I think it's fair to say there's a lot of stuff going on once those cables are attached. However, that's opinion, not fact.


Measuring flash counters into a PCR (or persisting/leveraging it in a variety of other ways) and measurements from the aforementioned boot chains themselves render flashing back to stock utterly futile. If BMW *want* to know, they'll know... and there's nothing (so far) that any of us can do about it.

PS: I'm told (unsubstantiated) that they now use yaw sensors and accelerometers combined to record performance metrics independent of the ECU--that covers ECU tunes, piggys, jetpacks attached to the car's arse and go faster stripes.
While all of that is very interesting, it is far beyond the realms of understanding by most BMW Technicians, which is perhaps why I'm yet to be caught out.

On my previous car, a C63S, a Senior Technician could tell something was up when he took it for a drive to identify an intermittent rattle. He could tell it felt more powerful, but couldn't prove what had been done.

As we both know, this forum and its members often diagnose software issues before BMW, and they're often solved by members first too!

M
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      08-25-2020, 09:32 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msm2000uk View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
C'mon, dude--that last part is codswallup. If BMW want to know, they'll know. Read on before you get mad at me; perhaps I'll convince you... perhaps not.

// tl;dr-->gobs of technical drivel follows


I don't agree here but this is my subjective opinion--subjective because *I don't personally* know what BMW does as a a matter of course for every single warranty repair. However, I do know what's technically plausible since that's what I do for a living... albeit for a different operating system.

So that said and to your point on pleading ignorance with BMW: this assumes they accept the burden of proof... because it's a moot point if they don't. For me, I don't think that BMW will accept the burden of proof when they 1) can't explain a given failure and 2) can attribute it to aftermarket mods--they'll say no and push the burden back on the customer. That's purely my opinion, though.

You can't *bury* code--this doesn't mean anything in the realm of technical reality. As an industry, we no longer run arbitrary code--especially in a boot chain--rather, we sign each binary (binary is geek-speak for an executable file) as a unit which results in a cryptographically-unique signature. That signature is then used to identify and prove legitimacy in a larger chain of trust. Each binary within the chain is enlightened with the cryptographic signature of the next binary in the chain. A binary will only hand-off to the next binary once its signature has been validated and the binary deemed trustworthy. Change one BIT of any binary and the signature is radically changed... as a result, the boot path fails (well, it fails if that's the desired outcome as it is with general-purpose operating systems; if it's not a general-purpose OS--as is likely the case with a car's OS--they'll probably log it rather than fail). Intercepting and injecting binaries into this chain for malicious purposes is, to date, thought to be computationally infeasible hence the recent popularity of so-called side channel attacks.

To explain how BMW can preserve and know what we might have done over time, you'd need to understand what a TPM is; what a PCR is; how PCRs are extended; what a chain of trust is; what PKI is; how asymmetric crypto works; how code is signed, etc. Once someone understands these core crypto technologies, they'll understand why claims of "they can't tell" or "they don't know" are unlikely to say the last (I say unlikely because I don't know how much of this BMW has implemented).


2 times is wildly statistically insignificant; even 152 times is. I also suspect most warranty claims aren't downstream of the drivetrain--rather, they're power seat issues or AC issues.


Wrt/ "BMW usually just wipe the ECU": that's not remotely representative of my firsthand experience with any of my Ms nor does it make rational sense to me. It's all software these days--human beings attach the cables and magic happens. I think it's fair to say there's a lot of stuff going on once those cables are attached. However, that's opinion, not fact.


Measuring flash counters into a PCR (or persisting/leveraging it in a variety of other ways) and measurements from the aforementioned boot chains themselves render flashing back to stock utterly futile. If BMW *want* to know, they'll know... and there's nothing (so far) that any of us can do about it.

PS: I'm told (unsubstantiated) that they now use yaw sensors and accelerometers combined to record performance metrics independent of the ECU--that covers ECU tunes, piggys, jetpacks attached to the car's arse and go faster stripes.
While all of that is very interesting, it is far beyond the realms of understanding by most BMW Technicians, which is perhaps why I'm yet to be caught out.

On my previous car, a C63S, a Senior Technician could tell something was up when he took it for a drive to identify an intermittent rattle. He could tell it felt more powerful, but couldn't prove what had been done.

As we both know, this forum and its members often diagnose software issues before BMW, and they're often solved by members first too!

M
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      09-09-2020, 03:19 PM   #25
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Quick update on this. I mentioned it to my dealership service dept, and btw they call it controlled backfire (lol). They say there should still be that sound on deceleration and so am taking it in tomorrow for them to have a look.
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      09-09-2020, 03:35 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Antmit View Post
Quick update on this. I mentioned it to my dealership service dept, and btw they call it controlled backfire (lol). They say there should still be that sound on deceleration and so am taking it in tomorrow for them to have a look.
That's how I describe myself after a curry.
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      09-09-2020, 04:04 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by msm2000uk View Post
You don't need to remap the ECU to add the burbles back, but you do need to re-code the exhaust ECU - not a difficult process if you have the necessarily tools.

M
Are you aware of a specific FDL in a specific ECU to code via eSysX? Or are you speaking of other tools?
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      09-09-2020, 04:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Antmit View Post
Quick update on this. I mentioned it to my dealership service dept, and btw they call it controlled backfire (lol). They say there should still be that sound on deceleration and so am taking it in tomorrow for them to have a look.
I think it has been determined that a software update reduced the burbles (regardless of what driving mode you are in, they have been reduced across the board). As far as we have been able to determine, it happened around the middle of this year as 11/2019.70 was effected as was 03/2020.30. I am currently on 07/2020.45 and mine is still not as it used to be.

Others have reported that this was not an intended change by BMW and have suggested that it could be reverted in a future release but I am yet to substantiate that.
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      09-09-2020, 05:40 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saunders17283 View Post
I think it has been determined that a software update reduced the burbles (regardless of what driving mode you are in, they have been reduced across the board). As far as we have been able to determine, it happened around the middle of this year as 11/2019.70 was effected as was 03/2020.30. I am currently on 07/2020.45 and mine is still not as it used to be.

Others have reported that this was not an intended change by BMW and have suggested that it could be reverted in a future release but I am yet to substantiate that.
Another reason to not update...
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      09-09-2020, 05:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
That's how I describe myself after a curry.
Thanks once again for providing the LOL moment of the day as obviously we have the same sense of humor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Antmit View Post
Quick update on this. I mentioned it to my dealership service dept, and btw they call it controlled backfire (lol). They say there should still be that sound on deceleration and so am taking it in tomorrow for them to have a look.
Interesting, i.e., BMW implements code name "controlled backfire" which impacts every N63 and S63 8-series here in the US (and likely similarly equipped other models as well). I'm going to guess it was one of the non-described "enhancements" in the 11/2019.70 OTA update I unfortunately blindly applied to my M850i. It probably was baked into the 03/2020 releases and of course is part of the 07/2020 releases as well. I guess the moral of the story is if you're still sitting at a 11/2019.55 (or lower release) and have no issues definitely do not do the "upgrade".

I can confirm even with the neutered 11/2019.70 release when in Sport Plus or Sport Individual (with the engine in Sport Plus) you still do get some burbles/gurgles on deceleration. That said you used to get it in Sport as well but that is pretty much non-existent post neutering.

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      09-09-2020, 06:10 PM   #31
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bloozemanAZ, what do you make of the posts claiming this was "not an intended BMW change" and it will be resolved in future releases?
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      09-09-2020, 06:58 PM   #32
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Going in for 1yr service, anyone know if BMW will force me to update? I've been able to request no updates in some other cars ie Jag and MB with no issues.
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      09-09-2020, 08:22 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Saunders17283 View Post
bloozemanAZ, what do you make of the posts claiming this was "not an intended BMW change" and it will be resolved in future releases?
I doubt it was unintentional whatsoever given the way emissions/exhaust is going. The EU has stepped in and is regulating. Here in the US I've done some Google searching and have found several states with laws on the books limiting exhaust sound in vehicles under 6K pounds to 80 dbA or less vs here in AZ it just requires a working muffler "that is in constant operation to prevent excessive or unusual noise".

That said I'd guess BMW is trying to normalize to the lowest common denominator just like emissions or it is a nightmare trying to limit for those states vs like here in AZ. For well over a decade all manufacturers build their cars for the US (domestic and imports) to match the lowest common denominator for emissions control with CA leading the charge initially but all states have now caught up even if still not as stringent. Bottom line is that exhaust sound is now too likely going to be a downward spiral as well with the EU leading the charge and the US along with others following.

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      09-09-2020, 08:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saunders17283 View Post
bloozemanAZ, what do you make of the posts claiming this was "not an intended BMW change" and it will be resolved in future releases?
I doubt it was unintentional whatsoever given the way emissions/exhaust is going. The EU has stepped in and is regulating. Here in the US I've done some Google searching and have found several states with laws on the books limiting exhaust in vehicles under 6K pounds to 80 dbA or less vs here in AZ it just requires a working muffler "that is in constant operation to prevent excessive or unusual noise".

That said I'd guess BMW is trying to normalize to the lowest common denominator just like emissions or it is a nightmare trying to limit for those states vs us like here in AZ. For well over a decade all manufacturers build their cars for the US (domestic and imports) to match the lowest common denominator for emissions control with CA leading the charge initially but all states have now caught up even if still not as stringent. Bottom line is that exhaust sound is now too likely going to be a downward spiral as well with the EU leading the charge with the US and others following.
Doesn't sound promising at all then.

Well, since a software upgrade is causing it & I know Bootmod3 can resolve it, I'm hoping someone uncovers an FDL code fix for it in eSys!
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      09-09-2020, 08:37 PM   #35
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There's no reason for BMW to retroactively reduce exhaust noise, unless it already exceeded what it should be and I do not find that to be the case at least comp'd to some other 2019 2020 perf cars. Something isn't adding up.
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      09-09-2020, 11:51 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saunders17283 View Post
Doesn't sound promising at all then.

Well, since a software upgrade is causing it & I know Bootmod3 can resolve it, I'm hoping someone uncovers an FDL code fix for it in eSys!
If you’re in the US and had it programmed from 11/2019 to anything newer since ownership, bring it in and tell them it’s quieter if it changed. Once warmed up, try hitting the gas in comfort while parked and see if it pops or has all valves open. They’re supposed to sound the same in comfort or sport when at idle. If not, it’s changed from normal. I’ve proven it and everyone at my dealer agrees after comparing to cars with older software. The more times it gets brought up, the more pressure they’ll have to correct it. It’s not real or critical to BMW engineers until multiple parties bring it up.
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      09-10-2020, 10:58 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by chrism850i View Post
If you’re in the US and had it programmed from 11/2019 to anything newer since ownership, bring it in and tell them it’s quieter if it changed. Once warmed up, try hitting the gas in comfort while parked and see if it pops or has all valves open. They’re supposed to sound the same in comfort or sport when at idle. If not, it’s changed from normal. I’ve proven it and everyone at my dealer agrees after comparing to cars with older software. The more times it gets brought up, the more pressure they’ll have to correct it. It’s not real or critical to BMW engineers until multiple parties bring it up.
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go in comfort after returning home from my next drive to ensure its properly warmed up. If it truly was unintentional on BMW's part one theory would be that somehow the EU code base in which the reduced exhaust sound is required inadvertently was applied to the NA code base. We know there definitely are two branches of the code base given some of those in the EU have shared various iDrive screen settings which are different than the US plus the obvious default coding for features such as Anti-Dazzle, etc.
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      09-10-2020, 11:44 AM   #38
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Is this common for all 8'ers? I read that some experienced their exhaust getting substantially quieter after updating software
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      09-10-2020, 12:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism850i View Post
If you’re in the US and had it programmed from 11/2019 to anything newer since ownership, bring it in and tell them it’s quieter if it changed. Once warmed up, try hitting the gas in comfort while parked and see if it pops or has all valves open. They’re supposed to sound the same in comfort or sport when at idle. If not, it’s changed from normal. I’ve proven it and everyone at my dealer agrees after comparing to cars with older software. The more times it gets brought up, the more pressure they’ll have to correct it. It’s not real or critical to BMW engineers until multiple parties bring it up.
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go in comfort after returning home from my next drive to ensure its properly warmed up. If it truly was unintentional on BMW's part one theory would be that somehow the EU code base in which the reduced exhaust sound is required inadvertently was applied to the NA code base. We know there definitely are two branches of the code base given some of those in the EU have shared various iDrive screen settings which are different than the US plus the obvious default coding for features such as Anti-Dazzle, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrism850i View Post
If you're in the US and had it programmed from 11/2019 to anything newer since ownership, bring it in and tell them it's quieter if it changed. Once warmed up, try hitting the gas in comfort while parked and see if it pops or has all valves open. They're supposed to sound the same in comfort or sport when at idle. If not, it's changed from normal. I've proven it and everyone at my dealer agrees after comparing to cars with older software. The more times it gets brought up, the more pressure they'll have to correct it. It's not real or critical to BMW engineers until multiple parties bring it up.
Thanks for the tip. I'll give it a go in comfort after returning home from my next drive to ensure its properly warmed up. If it truly was unintentional on BMW's part one theory would be that somehow the EU code base in which the reduced exhaust sound is required inadvertently was applied to the NA code base. We know there definitely are two branches of the code base given some of those in the EU have shared various iDrive screen settings which are different than the US plus the obvious default coding for features such as Anti-Dazzle, etc.
I've had it at BMW today, and they have confirmed that it was an update that was in place around November last year (he said a precise time, but I can't recall what he said). He also said that this particular update only referred to the UK and mainland Europe, and did not mention the US. Perhaps there was a different update there?

Also, not this guy above but another person in the organisation with knowledge of such matters, says that basically BMW are only EVER bothered by changes to the engine mapping. Things like this and other little tweaks are not of a concern to them at all, and basically intimated that you'd be fine taking this sort of change out and they'd either overwrite at service / OS update, or otherwise wouldn't even touch it. Only when it's a mapping issue are they in the mood for proving changes were made, or even made and reset. He also mentioned someone who did this with a company that guaranteed it was undetectable, but when BMW found it and questioned his warranty, he managed to get compensation from the tuner company because of that guarantee.

All very interesting, and suggests that this change can be reversed with BimmerCode or similar, and that also BMW wouldn't care.
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      09-10-2020, 02:52 PM   #40
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My car was purchased Dec 19 and updated once by me OTA in Jan and then hard wired with another update by the dealer in Feb of 20 with the latest SW at the time (needed to correct Connected App remote view issue) and there were no changes to the exhaust sound. after either update.

I also agree that if BMW wanted to they could locate any modifications made to the car, and if a warranty issue arose that may be related they could and may reject it depending upon the circumstances. To me these cars are fast enough for street use and no perf mods are needed.
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      09-10-2020, 03:00 PM   #41
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For the record, this is what I mean...



Go to 3:40 - 4:10.

See also this slightly cringe video, but one I watched about 20x before I got mine:



Again, about 4mins in they take it to a CostCo car park to “try and scare people with the exhaust pipe”. This is what was on the demo car I had, but not my new car.
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      09-10-2020, 03:37 PM   #42
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My car was purchased Dec 19 and updated once by me OTA in Jan and then hard wired with another update by the dealer in Feb of 20 with the latest SW at the time (needed to correct Connected App remote view issue) and there were no changes to the exhaust sound. after either update.

I also agree that if BMW wanted to they could locate any modifications made to the car, and if a warranty issue arose that may be related they could and may reject it depending upon the circumstances. To me these cars are fast enough for street use and no perf mods are needed.
I agree, but in my case I’m talking about a feature they took away between my demoing the car in March, and buying and driving it a year or so later.
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      09-10-2020, 05:40 PM   #43
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I agree, but in my case I’m talking about a feature they took away between my demoing the car in March, and buying and driving it a year or so later.
This is the part that upsets me. I test drove this a floor model in February of this year and loved it partially due to the mean exhaust sound! I wanted the luxury and technology wrapped up in a V8 with performance & a bad ass growl!

Well, I loved it and therefore ordered one...4 months later when it arrives, it doesn't sound anything like the car I test drove. Bit of a bait and switch if you ask me!
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      09-10-2020, 08:38 PM   #44
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My M850i coupe had a March 2020 build date, but I don't know if it was before or after the March software update. In sport mode, the car burbles on almost every down shift and I almost never feel the need to put the car in sport plus. The exhaust, including the shotgun-like cocking sound it makes on up shifts, is one of the major reasons I ordered the car. Based on the comments in this thread, I think I will avoid any software updates when I take it in for its first service early next year.
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