05-05-2019, 04:04 PM | #45 |
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05-06-2019, 07:19 AM | #47 |
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Says the guy with the “M” 235i. What unintended irony.
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05-06-2019, 07:43 AM | #48 | |
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A grand tourer (GT) is a car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. The term derives from the Italian language phrase gran turismo which became popular in the English language from the 1950s, evolving from fast touring cars and streamlined closed sports cars during the 1930s. More about GT here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_tourer
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05-06-2019, 08:38 AM | #49 |
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05-06-2019, 08:45 AM | #50 |
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05-06-2019, 08:46 AM | #51 |
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I have a feeling BMW released this time because they know the final car will do an even better one. It's just a teaser release. We all shall see very soon. Not to mention this is the standard car. Wait until the competition package does some laps. I think it will not disappoint.
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05-06-2019, 12:18 PM | #52 |
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As it was intended and nothing else.
The 8 and M8 by extension should be seen an appropriated for what they are: Dynamic and sporty coupes. BMW never made the assertion that they are all out sports cars and so there is no reason to compare them to the 911 or it like.
If I see a weakness, it is in the visual drama and I have said across other posts in the past. Now that BMW has moved into a new space that better addresses its luxury coupe/GT ambition, it leaves conceptual room to develop a true sports car at a lower end of the range which can show what BMW can do to answer the 911, AMG GTS and Audi R8. This should be the true spiritual successor of the original 6 and the car every enthusiast seems to want. That is hope. BMW needs to find the numbers that justify such a proposition but every time I find a higher up, they shrug and say, “No business case.” |
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05-06-2019, 04:55 PM | #54 | |
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Not sure why since we're only talking about one type of car here in this thread... but giving it a shot Here goes - •• GT car : A grand tourer (GT) is a car that is designed for high speed and long-distance driving, due to a combination of performance and luxury attributes. The most common format is a front-engine, rear-wheel-drive two-door coupé with either a two-seat or a 2+2 arrangement. •• Sports Coupe: (Please explain ) •• Roadster: A roadster (also spider, spyder) is an open two-seat car with emphasis on sporting appearance or character.Initially an American term for a two-seat car with no weather protection, usage has spread internationally and has evolved to include two-seat convertibles. The roadster was also a style of racing car driven in United States Auto Club (USAC) Championship Racing, including the Indianapolis 500, in the 1950s and 1960s. This type of racing car was superseded by rear-engine cars. •• Sports car: Attributing the definition of 'sports car' to any particular model can be controversial or the subject of debate among enthusiasts.[10][11][12] Authors and experts have often contributed their own ideas to capture a definition.[13][14][15][16] The notion of a vehicle being designed for driving pleasure is a common attribute of sports cars.[17] Insurance companies have also attempted to use mathematical formulae to categorise sports cars. Although many cars nowadays tend to fit a sporty image in order to appeal to customers, there are many instances in which these cars are not actually considered sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, pony cars and hot hatches, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars. Certain models can "appeal to both muscle car and sports car enthusiasts, two camps that rarely acknowledged each other's existences. Some models are called "sports cars" for marketing purposes to take advantage of greater marketplace acceptance and for promotional purposes. High-performance cars of various configurations are grouped as Sports and Grand tourer cars or, occasionally, just as performance cars. The definition of a sports car is not precise, but from the earliest first automobiles "people have found ways to make them go faster, round corners better, and look more beautiful" than the ordinary models inspiring an "emotional relationship" with a car that is fun to drive and use for the sake of driving. •• Super Car: A supercar — also called exotic car — is a loosely defined description of certain high-performance street-legal sportscars. Since the 1990s or 2000s, the term hypercar has come into use for the highest performing supercars. In the United States in the 1940s and 1990s, the term was used at times for technologies that were expected to appear on cars in the near future. •• Hyper Car: A more recent term for high-performance sportscars is "hypercar", which is sometimes used to describe the highest performing supercars. As per supercars, there is no set definition for what constitutes a hypercar. One interpretation is a limited-production, range-topping model priced above US$1,000,000. Some people consider the 1993 McLaren F1 to be the first hypercar, while others believe the 2005 Bugatti Veyron was the first hypercar. Many recent hypercars use a hybrid drivetrain, a trend started in 2013 by the McLaren P1, Porsche 918 Spyder and Ferrari LaFerrari. The Automobili Pininfarina Battista is a luxury hypercar that uses an all-electric powertrain. •• Track car: Dedicated for track use whereas it's specific use is to be a track weapon. Not intended for comfort or looks. Not always Street legal.
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05-06-2019, 07:59 PM | #55 | |
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Exactly! So not sure why people are comparing the times made by other types of cars. By sports coupes, I would class the M4s, C63s and RS5s in that category. Sports cars would be the 911s, Lotus Evoras and F types. Fairly small light high powered vehicles. The GT cars would be the M6, M8s, Vanquish, S63/65 AMGs etc |
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05-07-2019, 08:21 AM | #56 | ||
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I'll remind everyone here an M5 stops in 96 ft. A civic type R in 97ft and a Miata in 116ft. So the weight doesn't really affect braking distance in a modern car. M5 and M8s compétition though is Ferrari and 911. The big dimensions allows for more undercar aero and the result is the car is extremely stable and easy to drive compared to the Ferrari 488 and 911 which are lighter and smaller and more spin happy. The competition has to try harder to have a perfect race where the BMW is the more stable at the limit. All the space is used to generate more downforce and the weight on the production car also helps with traction because on the M8 version it doesn't roll side to side like a boat, this is not true on the M850i or even an M240i. All the downforce in a small car means different driving Styles at high and low speed. So a 911 driver needs to be very alert and ware of what he's doing as he transitions from say madness at Mid Ohio to the straight sections. However the M8 has along wheel base and the result is it less sensitive to pitch and roll and the car brakes better than any car in its class. I don't mean stopping distance though it's worst at that, i mean you don't wobble or wrestle with the back tires. The result is the M8 can use softer suspension set up and more natural driving technique can be employed making it easy to drive at the limit and easy to correct mistakes. Easy to drive in wet conditions. If you've driven a tiny M roadster for comparison you'll note the thing was stiff as hell. Because it had to be. The M8 and M5s large dimension inherently makes it more comfortable. Even the GTE version beats up the driver less than the Ferraris and Lambos. By comparison A hurrican is much much more punishing of mistakes at the limit. Braking in a hurracan (my phone hates this word sorry) is easier to throw off balance at sudden inputs or lack of due diligence with the wheel. The down side is of the size is weight and drag. The engine has Uber torque and reaches peak power at like 6000 rpms and the parry is over. The result is it slams to top speed fast and then hits the drag wall. Even the M850i seems to compete with the 9114S in a drag race which really is supposed to lined up with the M8 proper. The result is the car is perfect at handling turns while also capable of hitting top speed early, way before the competition even if it fizzles out sooner. The long wheelbase means it needs extra care and time to reset after narrow turns and chicanes. On a track like Nurburgring it's going to lose out to the 911 because of the big straight. It's got too much drag relative to the 911. But the rest of the way the M8 will be more confidence Inspiring and way less likely to have an accident. Yes, it would go faster if it weighed less but if you reduce the size you'll lose it's properties. It's got to be hard to get a car that mich bigger than a 911 down to 911 weight without cutting out the tech and comfort Feautures required in the segment. You can hopefully why this car and it's predecessor the M6 were able to win Spa and Daytona. It nabbed 4th and 5th at midohio partly because of of a Ferrari spin. The 911 as well in the GT3 spun. BMW also does well in extreme conditions due to the ease of driving. This is reflected in auto journalist stuff as well where the M5 frequently performs equal to 911s that have similar numbers but have way less weight. The car is easier to drive than a 911 so when you are out driving them for a few hours it's easier to put a good lap time up with the M5 than with the lighter 911. If you're buying a 500 hp car to go track with the M5/8 would be a great choice because it's the easiest to drive well where 911 has a tendance to spin around trying to put its motor in the front where it belongs. If you're wanting to go for a long ride an M8 with adaptive suspension obviously will be nice enough but I promise you the 850i will be more comfortable because BMW designs the suspension geometry with touring and light sporty driving in mind. Anyone saying a n M235i is more agile than an M8 is being silly and it's all a placebo. An M5 will skidpad much better than a 235i die to suspension set up. Anyway, that's probably more info than anyone wanted but hopefully we can get people to understand that there's much more to GT vs SportsCar than weight and size. By posting a 7:30 or under in the M8 BMW have shown a masterpiece of engineering off. Hopefully my post explains why. Remember the BMW M8 competes with the 911 S or Z06 in terms of design philosophy. An M8 Competition or CSL is really for GT3 or ZR1. he uninitiated assumes the M5/6/8 are too big to be track cars but they are very wrong. BMW made excellent track performers worthy of consideration for a 911, lambo, or Ferrari shopper. The big can be just as good as the small it just has different strengths and weaknesses. (And costs more because you'll use up brakes and tires!) |
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05-07-2019, 09:09 AM | #57 |
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05-07-2019, 04:07 PM | #58 | |
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I disagree with most of what you wrote. Anyway, all I can say is that my E92 335i inspired much more confidence under heavy braking than my F06 M6. I can only assume it's because of the weight difference. The M5/6/8 can "keep up" with supercars, but they will never ever be in the same class. A turbo s (991.2) and a 650s pissed all over my M6 on a short straight. Sports cars and supercars are meant to be faster and inspire confidence in extreme track conditions. I'm afraid BMW hasn't made a proper sports or super car yet. |
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05-07-2019, 05:57 PM | #61 |
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This is what I mean by trying to compare sports cars vs sports coupes.
The mid/rear engine layout and chassis of the porkies do make a difference to lap times. Don't get me wrong I'm a big M fan but some cars are just meant to have faster lap times. I'd take an M2 over a cayman or boxster any day. |
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05-07-2019, 10:17 PM | #62 | |||
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05-07-2019, 10:22 PM | #63 |
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That's how the car comes. I didn't buy an M2 because in 2015 there was no such model. I can't help that BMW slaps the M badge on almost every car model that they sell with a 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder turbo. I certainly did not want the 4 turbo that sounds like a tin can with nails rattling in it. So don't insult me by dissing me for my car's M badge.
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05-07-2019, 10:23 PM | #64 |
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05-08-2019, 04:00 PM | #65 | ||
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The dimensions of the 5, 6/8 do not rule it out as a track car and make it a GT. The design of an M6 from conception is for track duty. 'Gentleman's racer'. Consider the 911 991. The base model weighs in at 1,435kg. The GT2 RS is 1,470kg. By the logic of this websites users the base model is more track ready than the RS. But we know because marketing the RS is the faster car. Likewise the 991 is bigger than any of its predecessors. Does that make the 991 RS a GT car vs a base model 996? No, obviously not. Then look at the 911 turbo vs the 911 GT3. If you naively look at the website it seems the 911 Turbo is a faster car. 540 HP, 2.9 second 0-60. The 911 GT3 has 450 hp and 3.9 0-60. Yet the Nürburgring lap time the GT3 will beat the Turbo by 5 seconds or so. Both are 911s. Why? Suspension. A 911 turbo is set up for autobahn cruising. It can obviously go the the track but for its weight power and price tag it's going to be slow. When it corners weight shifts from left to right and the tires lose traction and thus cornering speed. However on bumps and at high speed it's smooth and there's no vibration and you don't feel bumps. The M6 is set up to handle track day not the autobahn. Yeah, BMW makes it comfortable with luxury feautures, theoretically they have an M6 CSL where they cut out the pigfat. BMW has always been 'sport luxury'. They don't really make a 911 GT2 RS trin equivalent where it's CSL with a bigger engine. If you want a coupe for grand touring you buy an alpina B6 not an M6. The 6 series is a large coupe and it can be tuned to serve different roles. M650i = 911 Base M6 = 911 S M6 compétition = 911 GTS The analogy breaks down really because CS and CSL in BMW means weight reduction and for Porsche RS means bigger engine and more power. BMW doesn't compete with the RS. The M8 being sub 7:30 at the ring puts it slower than the 911 it competes with but it's more comfortable and easier to drive. 911s spin a lot. 335i can go to the track, I know first hand, but it doesn't mean it's a track car. BMWs nomenclature has meaning. I've even seen reviews saying the M850i is too aggressive to be a good GT, but bmw doesn't really do GT outside the 7 series. |
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05-08-2019, 04:08 PM | #66 | ||
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