[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

I totally appreciate your reply. Sorry, I didn't read the intro where a line was drawn in the sand on comparisons. My apologies.

No worries but yes defined at the beginning of the thread as no comparison to B&W but rather after market options to improve the stock HK system.

Originally Posted by claykin

By empirical, I assume you mean "your empirical" data?

Yes and no. Back when I bought my wife's 2017 X5 I did research on the HK BMW puts in their fleet including (took a bit of a deep dive) the specs of the speakers. I'm pretty sure nothing has changed outside of the fact the HK in my wife's X5 has a 600W amp and now forever what reason (cost savings?) the current HK is a 464W amp (aka booster) whether base on the 8 series or an upgrade on a lower series.

Then comes the absolute empirical data of having owned a pair of B&W 801s (equal cost to a decently optioned 1 series) that the B&W audio system speaker wise is built on for BMW's offering. Is it a true comparison? Not really as the 801s had 10" drivers for bass and 6" drivers for midrange. However, the material is the same including the Diamond tweeters which are a 100% match.

Add in 30+ years of audio experience including 10+ years of mixing sound for when my band played live (we had 100K of equipment we used vs the venue's provided gear), mixing sound in studios for my bands EPs, live recordings, etc. plus other bands by request (keeps down the cost from the label). Along with 20 plus years of cultivating a home audio experience which is one of my two passions equal to others on the forum's passion for cars. To me music is life and my world is built on that.

Hence, it took me all of 30 minutes in a 2019 M850i with HK and a 2019 M850i with B&W to declare a no-brainer winner regardless of cost. For others sitting on the fence and leasing I always provided guidance that the esthetics of the B&W is worth the marginal cost add.

Originally Posted by claykin

By listening to FLAC files, you're the benchmark in which B&W was set when they set out to provide a higher end option. I venture a guess that most, if not nearly all owners of B&W, listen (mostly) to lossy (HD radio, Spotify, Apple music, Youtube music, etc..), Satellite, etc.. And Satellite is atrocious sounding. I have a friend who works for Sirius/XM in their Deerfield Beach, FL office where they do all the audio compression programming. Trust me, it's a sound quality sh*t show.

That was my point, i.e., regardless of lossy vs lossless the B&W still amazes me at times but that depends on the source/mix. I have Amazon Music with their HD and Ultra HD (just depends on the album) that blows away SiriusXM from a sound quality perspective. However, that comes along with Android Auto and it's shortcomings so mostly when not on my SSD it's SiriusXM and Ozzy's Boneyard or Real Jazz.

Depending on the source/mix of the song/album regardless of the compression some tracks just flat out amaze me. An example is Accept's "Balls to the Wall". When it hits on Ozzy's Boneyard regardless of other's complaints regarding B&W bass I can feel it in my chest. My mileage may vary from others but my dialed in B&W config is an absolute delivery of smiles worth every penny for the option.

[M8Bimmer]

I have the B & W in my car. For some reason my Android Auto connection sounds the best of any source. No matter which one I use.
If I play the same source/material through Android Auto into the car it sounds so much better. I don't know why. If the same source is Blue-toothed into the system it doesn't sound as good. Or played off the USB port either. This is in 3 different cars too.
For some reason Android Auto makes it sound much better. Anyone else notice this?

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by claykin

I totally appreciate your reply. Sorry, I didn't read the intro where a line was drawn in the sand on comparisons. My apologies.

By empirical, I assume you mean "your empirical" data?

By listening to FLAC files, you're the benchmark in which B&W was set when they set out to provide a higher end option. I venture a guess that most, if not nearly all owners of B&W, listen (mostly) to lossy (HD radio, Spotify, Apple music, Youtube music, etc..), Satellite, etc.. And Satellite is atrocious sounding. I have a friend who works for Sirius/XM in their Deerfield Beach, FL office where they do all the audio compression programming. Trust me, it's a sound quality sh*t show. When listening to lossy music, the benefits of B&W are watered down. And when listening while driving with road noise injected into the experience, it's even further watered down. Nevertheless, B&W sounds a bit better. It should for $3K+!!

As far as BMW and options, I agree with you 100%. BMW does an amazing job of upsell. One of the best in the business. I struggle every time I order a new car.

I agree Sat radio sucks for quality. It's not too bad but my streaming sources sound way better. Even on only Medium Quality in the settings menu it's way better than Sat radio.

[claykin]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

I have the B & W in my car. For some reason my Android Auto connection sounds the best of any source. No matter which one I use.
If I play the same source/material through Android Auto into the car it sounds so much better. I don't know why. If the same source is Blue-toothed into the system it doesn't sound as good. Or played off the USB port either. This is in 3 different cars too.
For some reason Android Auto makes it sound much better. Anyone else notice this?

Android Auto, similarly to Carplay, uses Bluetooth only for the handshake. Data is sent using 5Ghz wifi. Wifi has more bandwidth to send data, but that sort of changes with Bluetooth 5.3 assuming vendors on both the handset and headunit side implement it properly. And, the best of it is a Qualcomm patented tech which most of us techies know will not come easily to Apple devices.

[claykin]

Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ

No worries but yes defined at the beginning of the thread as no comparison to B&W but rather after market options to improve the stock HK system.



Yes and no. Back when I bought my wife's 2017 X5 I did research on the HK BMW puts in their fleet including (took a bit of a deep dive) the specs of the speakers. I'm pretty sure nothing has changed outside of the fact the HK in my wife's X5 has a 600W amp and now forever what reason (cost savings?) the current HK is a 464W amp (aka booster) whether base on the 8 series or an upgrade on a lower series.

Then comes the absolute empirical data of having owned a pair of B&W 801s (equal cost to a decently optioned 1 series) that the B&W audio system speaker wise is built on for BMW's offering. Is it a true comparison? Not really as the 801s had 10" drivers for bass and 6" drivers for midrange. However, the material is the same including the Diamond tweeters which are a 100% match.

Add in 30+ years of audio experience including 10+ years of mixing sound for when my band played live (we had 100K of equipment we used vs the venue's provided gear), mixing sound in studios for my bands EPs, live recordings, etc. plus other bands by request (keeps down the cost from the label). Along with 20 plus years of cultivating a home audio experience which is one of my two passions equal to others on the forum's passion for cars. To me music is life and my world is built on that.

Hence, it took me all of 30 minutes in a 2019 M850i with HK and a 2019 M850i with B&W to declare a no-brainer winner regardless of cost. For others sitting on the fence and leasing I always provided guidance that the esthetics of the B&W is worth the marginal cost add.



That was my point, i.e., regardless of lossy vs lossless the B&W still amazes me at times but that depends on the source/mix. I have Amazon Music with their HD and Ultra HD (just depends on the album) that blows away SiriusXM from a sound quality perspective. However, that comes along with Android Auto and it's shortcomings so mostly when not on my SSD it's SiriusXM and Ozzy's Boneyard or Real Jazz.

Depending on the source/mix of the song/album regardless of the compression some tracks just flat out amaze me. An example is Accept's "Balls to the Wall". When it hits on Ozzy's Boneyard regardless of other's complaints regarding B&W bass I can feel it in my chest. My mileage may vary from others but my dialed in B&W config is an absolute delivery of smiles worth every penny for the option.

You have an excellent use case where B&W is a win and great value.

I didn't realize BMW downgraded the HK amp (booster). When did they do that? If it wasn't a redesign where they took a class AB amp and went to class D, then my suspicion is they did that to create a wider disparity between HK and B&W....

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

I have the B & W in my car. For some reason my Android Auto connection sounds the best of any source. No matter which one I use.
If I play the same source/material through Android Auto into the car it sounds so much better. I don't know why. If the same source is Blue-toothed into the system it doesn't sound as good. Or played off the USB port either. This is in 3 different cars too.
For some reason Android Auto makes it sound much better. Anyone else notice this?

From my experience with my old Pixel 3 XL and current Pixel 6 Pro the only way to use a USB connection to play music requires it to be resident on the cellphone vs a streaming service. The reason why Android Auto sounds better than Bluetooth is purely technical. Bluetooth has a limited bandwidth literally worse than a MP3 but most are happy with that route. On the other hand Android Auto and CarPlay leverage WiFi and hence greater bandwidth and depending on the source will blow away SiriusXM as an example.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

Android Auto, similarly to Carplay, uses Bluetooth only for the handshake. Data is sent using 5Ghz wifi. Wifi has more bandwidth to send data, but that sort of changes with Bluetooth 5.3 assuming vendors on both the handset and headunit side implement it properly. And, the best of it is a Qualcomm patented tech which most of us techies know will not come easily to Apple devices.

Beat me to it and yes not holding my breath on Bluetooth 5.3 as regardless of the advancement a WiFi or USB 3.0+ connection will squelch it's capabilities.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

You have an excellent use case where B&W is a win and great value.

I didn't realize BMW downgraded the HK amp (booster). When did they do that? If it wasn't a redesign where they took a class AB amp and went to class D, then my suspicion is they did that to create a wider disparity between HK and B&W....

Considering we're breaking all the rules set out on the thread might as well keep going. 🤣 I'm not sure when BMW deprecated the 600W amp/booster for the current gen 464W version but pretty sure it's not an AB vs D situation. As hinted before my guess is COGS aka greater margin on the product sold.

That said after decades of running AB amps including mono blocks, etc. for my home audio I went to the dark side of class D about 4 years back. It is beyond glorious but not for the faint at heart as pretty equivalent to a well optioned 2 series or stripped 3 series. Music is life for me so not loosing sleep over it and paid cash (there is no financing in the high-end audio world).

[claykin]

Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ

Beat me to it and yes not holding my breath on Bluetooth 5.3 as regardless of the advancement a WiFi or USB 3.0+ connection will squelch it's capabilities.

However, a Qualcomm S5 connection will save considerable battery on the streaming device. The question is whether there's enough bandwidth (and reliable enough 2.4Ghz connection) to also serve an AA or Carplay connection. My guess is there's not enough to handle AA/Carplay and HD audio streaming. The world needs a Wifi-LE standard (one with useable bandwidth).

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

However, a Qualcomm S5 connection will save considerable battery on the streaming device. The question is whether there's enough bandwidth (and reliable enough 2.4Ghz connection) to also serve an AA or Carplay connection.

I came from the cellphone world, had to deal with Qualcomm's semi monopoly and their current CTO is a personal friend (yep it's a small world as Disney likes to say). Still not buying it as I'd put my R&D elsewhere and Jim and I have a long going "agree to disagree" on that. 😜

[claykin]

Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ

I came from the cellphone world, had to deal with Qualcomm's semi monopoly and their current CTO is a personal friend (yep it's a small world as Disney likes to say). Still not buying it as I'd put my R&D elsewhere and Jim and I have a long going "agree to disagree" on that. ��

Manufacturers are tired of paying their rape (um, sorry, royalty) fees. But I'm a stockholder so keep it up king of RF patents!

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

Manufacturers are tired of paying their rape (um, sorry, royalty) fees. But I'm a stockholder so keep it up king of RF patents!

Agreed but there are the manufacturers such as Google and others whom have long stepped away from Qualcomm's monopoly. Even my long lost brethren (some are still friends) from MMI (originally spun off from MOT, aquired by Google for the parents and then sold to Lenovo minus patents) are driving towards a non-Qualicomm world.

[claykin]

Originally Posted by bloozemanAZ

Agreed but there are the manufacturers such as Google and others whom have long stepped away from Qualcomm's monopoly. Even my long lost brethren (some are still friends) from MMI (originally spun off from MOT, aquired by Google for the parents and then sold to Lenovo minus patents) are driving towards a non-Qualicomm world.

Maybe, but if theses manufacturers implement a modern 4G/5G modem, odds are they're paying Qualcomm a royalty. And arguably Qualcomm does the best modem on the market. For now

[ikonn]

Originally Posted by r33_RGSport

Unless you want to roll without the interior door panel, it doesn't matter whether the logo is upside up or upside down. The sound coming out from it won't be reversed.

Lol, thanks for the confirmation. Of course logically and for all practical purposes you are correct. I could certainly live with it hidden. But just knowing that they are upside down would bother my sensibilities. I’m too weak.

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by ikonn

Lol, thanks for the confirmation. Of course logically and for all practical purposes you are correct. I could certainly live with it hidden. But just knowing that they are upside down would bother my sensibilities. I’m too weak.

Maybe it's not the speakers that are upside down. It may just be the dome on the cone was printed the wrong way up. Or was the dome glued on right way down? Or was it made in the lower hemisphere of the earth when it wasn't daylight saving time?
They probably aren't gonna sound right. I bet they play everything in reverse. Or burst into flames.

[bloozemanAZ]

Originally Posted by claykin

Maybe, but if theses manufacturers implement a modern 4G/5G modem, odds are they're paying Qualcomm a royalty. And arguably Qualcomm does the best modem on the market. For now

Since we've taken this thread so far off topic I might as well continue to provide some clarity. I live in the world of IP rights, prior art, etc. and in the CDMA world MOT owned the most patents. Moving into 4G (several flavors) or 5G (same scenario with UW, UC, etc. depending on the spectrum) Qualcomm is left behind. To your point though patents last for 20 years (in general) so royalties are due nonetheless.

That said major manufacturers are moving away from Qualcomm's chips to drive their devices. The key being that generates more revenue for Qualcomm than the IP royalties. Case-in-point being Apple and Google. Smaller players will still leverage Snapdragon chips to power their devices but at an overall smaller market share.

[r33_RGSport]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

Maybe it's not the speakers that are upside down. It may just be the dome on the cone was printed the wrong way up. Or was the dome glued on right way down? Or was it made in the lower hemisphere of the earth when it wasn't daylight saving time?
They probably aren't gonna sound right. I bet they play everything in reverse. Or burst into flames.

Most probably the DST.

[hinckley]

Gents (you know who you are), I love your contributions to this forum, but could we not go down an audiophile rabbit hole yet again? Some of us are really interested in a real-world audio upgrade and no matter how often we try, these threads end up being hijacked. Maybe some of you guys could go offline; you know, get a room or something.

Thank you.

[Ghostrider641]

I’m beginning to think the quality of the HK speakers may be fine, but that the AMP and DSP might be the weak links…thoughts?

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by Ghostrider641

I’m beginning to think the quality of the HK speakers may be fine, but that the AMP and DSP might be the weak links…thoughts?

I agree with you. I bet the HK drivers are not that bad. Anyone know if the HK system comes with the under seat subs?
I'd bet the bigger amp would help

[snareman]

Originally Posted by M8Bimmer

I agree with you. I bet the HK drivers are not that bad. Anyone know if the HK system comes with the under seat subs?
I'd bet the bigger amp would help

The HK does have the subs.

[M8Bimmer]

Originally Posted by snareman

The HK does have the subs.

I'm not really keeping up to much with the info on all this but doesn't that BAV sound amp integrate into the HK system. I'd bet that would be a good first try.
Has anyone tried that yet?