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View Poll Results: Will Donald Trump be Impeached or will this blowback on Biden
Orange Trump bad. Trump gone. 51 29.31%
Trump Trump-umphant. 59 33.91%
Inclusive 13 7.47%
Biden C4'd to oblivion. 54 31.03%
Biden grows in strength and gets shot in the arm for nomination. 8 4.60%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 174. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-25-2019, 10:31 AM   #67
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https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitic...ine-transcript
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      09-25-2019, 10:37 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
so now what? these are fake transcripts and demand audio? what are they going to go on next?
What's next? I'd say a never ending stream of anonymous/unverified 'bombshell' leaks from unknown sources and the suckers will fall for that one too and they'll cry 'OMG look what Trump did now'. Wash, rinse, repeat.
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      09-25-2019, 10:39 AM   #69
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So I just read the entire transcript - and I have to say, I was expecting to see some stuff in there that was super slimy and unethical, but probably not illegal.

I read it cover to cover - and honestly, I just cannot see a single issue with anything that was said. Trump mentioned the issue with Biden bragging about getting the old prosecutor fired and that the new Ukrainian prosecutor should re-look at that. Where is that a problem?

I'll be the first one to admit that Trump is typically quite slimy and unethical and I was going into this expecting the worst - but I honestly don't see anything to be upset about with respect to that call, let alone anything even remotely coming to the level of 'high crimes and misdemeanors' that would warrant impeachment.

Am I missing something?
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      09-25-2019, 10:42 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I'm starting to believe that this might be a concerted effort to get Warren to win the Dem primary.

Surely they all know that Biden has quite a bit of fingerprints in this too? I imagine that everyone pushing this narrative is figuring they have a shot at a toofer. They probably know that impeaching Trump is extremely unlikely but they figure there is a slim chance they might succeed. In addition, they probably all assume that Biden's dirty laundry is going to come out with respect to Hunter. He may or may not have done anything illegal, but regardless of that, it will probably hurt him in the polls, leading to Warren winning the nomination. The media absolutely fawn over Warren - so I can see the thought process behind all this.
Ding.

My take:
*The dnc greenlighted impeachment.
*Joe gets goned. Bernie 2016 2.0
*Pushing Warren. First female, yadda yada. Progressive, yada yada.
*Hillary jumps in as VP mate. Hillary will die trying to get back to the fat cookie jar and her fanbase and more centrist label will intice Warren. Female Female, rah rah rah.

*Trump Pence vs Warren Clinton*
Trump 2020.
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      09-25-2019, 10:43 AM   #71
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So he admits to asking a foreign government to investigate his main political rival and everybody just goes ho hum? The timing of this is what matters, especially to the aid being withheld for a while. If Trump cared so much about this in the past, why didn't ask previous Ukrainian leaders to look into this before Biden became the Dem frontrunner?

Plus, most of this has gone through Giuliani the last couple of years and he is the key to what is going on here.

In the end, I don't think much will come of the impeachment attempt. At most it will be similar to what happened to B Clinton.

And for all of you that profess to love/respect/think the founding fathers are geniuses..............this is exactly one of the things they were most fearful of. Foreign intervention into US elections from either side.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/14/73257...tions-founding
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      09-25-2019, 10:48 AM   #72
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Stop the Lunacy!

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicalApex View Post
Can you explain the exact process you are certain the Democrats are undertaking that would be to their sole advantage here? Even if we follow your thought train that the sole mission of that party is to "remove the President the people elected". How would this benefit Democrats? The President who would be put in his place would be Mike Pence who is also Republican. It wouldn't gain them any advantage.

In addition to this, the Democrats have not held a majority in the Senate during Trumps entire presidency so they have never had the votes to "remove the President the people elected". Our constitution lays out a specific process for removal from office and that can only occur in the Senate. So Trump has zero concerns unless he loses support of his own party in the Senate.

It is like we're on two different planets where some of us have, at least, read our Constitution and others off somewhere else. Living in an alternative reality.

We are supposed to have loyalty to our country, but not to our politicians. We should be holding them accountable, all of them, and demanding more transparency not less. Stonewalling like has been going on is a disservice to ALL of us.


Thanks Logical Apex. Your comment is the only intelligent one written here so far. I don't care if the president is a democrat, republican, or a farm animal. If he or she is placing our democracy at risk for his or her own benefit, we need to potentially make a change if the facts point to laws being broken.
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      09-25-2019, 10:56 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gonzo View Post
Ding.

My take:
*The dnc greenlighted impeachment.
*Joe gets goned. Bernie 2016 2.0
*Pushing Warren. First female, yadda yada. Progressive, yada yada.
*Hillary jumps in as VP mate. Hillary will die trying to get back to the fat cookie jar and her fanbase and more centrist label will intice Warren. Female Female, rah rah rah.

*Trump Pence vs Warren Clinton*
Trump 2020.
I agree with most of this except for your running mate choice. I think Warren is going to be the nominee and I think the running mate will be Mayor Pete. Female progressive and gay VP. That's a boastful ticket for the dems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
So he admits to asking a foreign government to investigate his main political rival and everybody just goes ho hum? The timing of this is what matters, especially to the aid being withheld for a while. If Trump cared so much about this in the past, why didn't ask previous Ukrainian leaders to look into this before Biden became the Dem frontrunner?

Plus, most of this has gone through Giuliani the last couple of years and he is the key to what is going on here.

In the end, I don't think much will come of the impeachment attempt. At most it will be similar to what happened to B Clinton.

And for all of you that profess to love/respect/think the founding fathers are geniuses..............this is exactly one of the things they were most fearful of. Foreign intervention into US elections from either side.

https://www.npr.org/2019/06/14/73257...tions-founding
He didn't ask them to investigate a political rival because he was a political rival, he asked them to re-open an investigation that was already ongoing that his political rival had them close and is on tape saying that he purposely held back loan guarantees to make it happen.

I honestly don't see the issue with that.

With respect to foreign election interference, you may like it or not like it but it has been going on for decades. Heck, Hillary Clinton has admitted that she used the Ukrainian government to aid in oppo research against Trump in 2016. Literally the exact same thing everyone is getting bent out of shape about Trump with now. You really want to open a can of worms, Ted Kennedy actively recruited foreign opposition to create false narratives to attempt to prevent Reagan getting reelected for a second term. I mean, that was bordering on treason and no one really cared about it then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WiM235i View Post
Thanks Logical Apex. Your comment is the only intelligent one written here so far. I don't care if the president is a democrat, republican, or a farm animal. If he or she is placing our democracy at risk for his or her own benefit, we need to potentially make a change if the facts point to laws being broken.
But what law has been broken? I don't see any. I guess there is a minuscule chance you might be able to find a way to show that a campaign finance law has been broken, but that certainly isn't an impeachable offense. Heck, Obama was found guilty of breaking campaign finance laws during his second election, paid the fines, moved on and was reelected.

I'm just not seeing an issue here.
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      09-25-2019, 11:00 AM   #74
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My updated prediction.

Based on:

Ukrainian President says nothing untoward was said/done.
US President says nothing untoward was said/done.
Transcript confirms nothing untoward was said/done.

1. Deeper look at Biden and he along with Hunter become objects of an investigation.

2. Democrats going deeper into the Hoax tributary that is this allegation.

3. Democrats losing massively in the House and Senate because the American people are fed up with this witch hunt.

4. Mr. Trump wins 2020 in a landslide.

That is all.
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Hell, I get random sausage attacks when I go anywhere.

Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...

Fair and objective hearings don't take place in secret.
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      09-25-2019, 11:01 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
So I just read the entire transcript - and I have to say, I was expecting to see some stuff in there that was super slimy and unethical, but probably not illegal.

I read it cover to cover - and honestly, I just cannot see a single issue with anything that was said. Trump mentioned the issue with Biden bragging about getting the old prosecutor fired and that the new Ukrainian prosecutor should re-look at that. Where is that a problem?

I'll be the first one to admit that Trump is typically quite slimy and unethical and I was going into this expecting the worst - but I honestly don't see anything to be upset about with respect to that call, let alone anything even remotely coming to the level of 'high crimes and misdemeanors' that would warrant impeachment.

Am I missing something?

Same thing that was at issue with the Don Jr. meeting at Trump Tower with Whats-her-name:

It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election,” FEC chair Ellen Weintraub cautioned in a June statement. “This is not a novel concept. Electoral intervention from foreign governments has been considered unacceptable since the beginnings of our nation.”
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...-interference/

Hardly a legal slam-dunk, but certainly raises questions. No?
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      09-25-2019, 11:03 AM   #76
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I posted this in another thread too, but figure it warrants a comment here also.

I'll ask again, for those who think the transcripts prove something:

What crime can be proven with this that Trump committed which would reach the level needed for impeachment?

I haven't had anyone be able to respond to that with documented evidence.
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      09-25-2019, 11:09 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Same thing that was at issue with the Don Jr. meeting at Trump Tower with Whats-her-name:

It is illegal for any person to solicit, accept, or receive anything of value from a foreign national in connection with a U.S. election,” FEC chair Ellen Weintraub cautioned in a June statement. “This is not a novel concept. Electoral intervention from foreign governments has been considered unacceptable since the beginnings of our nation.”
https://www.opensecrets.org/news/201...-interference/

Hardly a legal slam-dunk, but certainly raises questions. No?
I don't see it. Plus, even if you were able to prove it, violating campaign finance laws isn't an impeachable offense.

I mean, heck, he was dinged by the FEC all the way back in 2016 without issue. So was Sanders.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/polit...ons/index.html
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      09-25-2019, 11:14 AM   #78
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After reading the transcript, a few things strand put:

1. Trump called the former proscecuter who was fired "very good":
The Pre·sident: Good because I· heard you had a prosecutor
who· was very·good and he was shut down and that's really unfair.

Shokin is universally regarded as someone who was totally blocking corruption investigations, including Burisma. Why would Trump call him "very good"? And Shokin was blocking the investigation. Blocking it. I guess that makes sense in Trumpworld, but not to me.
https://www.rferl.org/a/why-was-ukra.../30181445.html

2. Why would Trump involve Giuliani in this? He is not a part of the US government. He is a personal employee of Trump. And Giuliani has already admitted he is/was trying to get an investigation started on the Biden's in Ukraine. Trump can't spin it any other way now.

Irrespective of the timeline, the call is damning. Add the mysterious timing on the withholding of aid, I believe the Democrats are not only justified in bringing about an impeachment proceeding, Pelosi didn't have an ethical choice.

Here is a link to the transcript:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-u...-live-updates/
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      09-25-2019, 11:15 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
...He didn't ask them to investigate a political rival because he was a political rival, he asked them to re-open an investigation that was already ongoing that his political rival had them close and is on tape saying that he purposely held back loan guarantees to make it happen...
That's a pretty long row to hoe, man. He didn't say "You should look into Burisma.", he called out Biden by name.

Also, the international community wanted the Prosecutor General removed because he wasn't actually investigation corruption at Burisma and other places, allegedly. Replacing him with someone that would, is counter to making things safer for Burisma, no?

Further, the Ukrainian government has already issued a statement that there was no investigation of Biden's son or Burisma when Biden - on behalf of the US Government and in conjunction with the EU and numerous NGOs - pressured Ukraine to get rid of Shokin. Didn't they?
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      09-25-2019, 11:18 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I don't see it. Plus, even if you were able to prove it, violating campaign finance laws isn't an impeachable offense.

I mean, heck, he was dinged by the FEC all the way back in 2016 without issue. So was Sanders.

https://www.cnn.com/2016/11/21/polit...ons/index.html
Says who? "High crimes and misdemeanors" is very, very vague.
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      09-25-2019, 11:19 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
I posted this in another thread too, but figure it warrants a comment here also.

I'll ask again, for those who think the transcripts prove something:

What crime can be proven with this that Trump committed which would reach the level needed for impeachment?

I haven't had anyone be able to respond to that with documented evidence.
Emoluments and I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but I do know you are not supposed to call and ask a foreign government to dig up dirt on your political rivals. I realize it has been going on, but Trump has taken it to another level.

Zelensky obviously knows this and knows he needs to suck DJT off big time to get what he wants. He even mentions staying at Trump tower previously and hints at coming back there again. Trump is already in pending legal trouble for this and been found to have violated it. DJT gets right to the point asking what he wants. Both men and most reasonable people know exactly what is going on in the phone call. Both are getting something they want, the problem is a sitting US President is not supposed to be able to do this or a candidate. Getting dirt that will most likely crush your rival is one hell of a huge "gift" or "bribe" wouldn't you say? I certainly would.

The righties lost their shit when Obama was caught on an open mic to Medvedev about needing space because of the election. Can you imagine if he insinuated a quid pro quo for dirt on Romney in trade for what Russia wanted to happen with the missile shield? Holy shit a firing squad/impeachment wouldn't have been enough to satisfy the right.

Last, it is well know this is how DJT does foreign policy. It is a lot of the reason he is so tight with the Saudis, DJT makes sure he, his family or his businesses (he divested, yah right) get something personally out of it.

Again, I know this shit has been going for a long time and it is part of the real swamp DC is, something a certain President promised to drain about a million times IIRC.

Last, I don't think Biden is that worried as he is on board with the impeachment and knows Giuliani has been working behind the scenes for quite awhile in Ukraine trying to get this info on Biden and his son. If he/they haven't gotten anything yet, I'm guessing there isn't anything there.

Last edited by minn19; 09-25-2019 at 11:25 AM..
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      09-25-2019, 11:25 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by minn19 View Post
Emoluments and I'm not a Constitutional scholar, but I do know you are not supposed to call and ask a foreign government to dig up dirt on your political rivals. I realize it has been going on, but Trump has taken it to another level.

Zelensky obviously knows this and knows he needs to suck DJT off big time to get what he wants. He even mentions staying at Trump tower previously and hints at coming back there again. Trump is already in pending legal trouble for this and been found to have violated it. DJT gets right to the point asking what he wants. Both men and most reasonable people know exactly what is going on in the phone call. Both are getting something they want, the problem is a sitting US President is not supposed to be able to do this or a candidate. Getting dirt that will most likely crush your rival is one hell of a huge "gift" or "bribe" wouldn't you say? I certainly would.

The righties lost their shit when Obama was caught on an open mic to Medvedev about needing space because of the election. Can you imagine if he insinuated a quid pro quo for dirt on Romney in trade for what Russia wanted to happen with the missile shield? Holy shit a firing squad/impeachment wouldn't have been enough to satisfy the right.

Last, it is well know this is how DJT does foreign policy. It is a lot of the reason he is so tight with the Saudis, DJT makes sure he, his family or his businesses (he divested, yah right) get something personally out of it.

I know this shit has been going for a long time and it is part of the real swamp DC is, something a certain President promised to drain about a million times IIRC.

Last, I don't think Biden is that worried as he is on board with the impeachment and knows Giuliani has been working behind the scenes for quite awhile in Ukraine trying to get this info on Biden and his son. If he/they haven't gotten anything yet, I'm guessing there isn't anything there.
Again - I'm going to agree with most of what you said, except for saying that Trump is taking to the next level. You might want to read about when Kennedy told Andropov (the head of the politburo of the USSR) that he would help him (the leader of a country we were at war with) to combat Reagan if the USSR would help out the Democrat party. That blows all of this out of the water, and yet - nothing became of it.

https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/te...l#34f36452359a

https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/12/...s-re-election/

But once again, we all know who Trump is and what Trump does. He's Trump.

There is no cut and dry quid pro quo here, and as such, I am not seeing a crime being committed. Trump can call every world leader and ask them to please dig up dirt on his political rivals (aka exactly what Clinton did against Trump in 2016), but while it might be sleazy, it isn't a crime.

If Trump committed a provable crime, impeach him.

Otherwise, let's all move on.
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      09-25-2019, 11:28 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
Says who? "High crimes and misdemeanors" is very, very vague.
Says stare decisis? Nearly every single sitting president over the last several decades, plus hundreds of congressman and senators have been charged with campaign finance law violations by the FEC and not a single one of them has been impeached because of it.

Finally, on top of all of that, the FEC can't currently hold a quorum, hence why Illian Omar hasn't been fined for anything. As such, they don't really have any power to do anything right now either.

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/30/75552...erence-on-hold
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      09-25-2019, 11:30 AM   #84
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Missed it by that much, no quid pro quo no criminal act. Keep digging dimwits
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      09-25-2019, 11:32 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Again - I'm going to agree with most of what you said, except for saying that Trump is taking to the next level. You might want to read about when Kennedy told Andropov (the head of the politburo of the USSR) that he would help him (the leader of a country we were at war with) to combat Reagan if the USSR would help out the Democrat party. That blows all of this out of the water, and yet - nothing became of it.

https://www.forbes.com/2009/08/27/te...l#34f36452359a

https://www.dailysignal.com/2016/12/...s-re-election/

But once again, we all know who Trump is and what Trump does. He's Trump.

There is no cut and dry quid pro quo here, and as such, I am not seeing a crime being committed. Trump can call every world leader and ask them to please dig up dirt on his political rivals (aka exactly what Clinton did against Trump in 2016), but while it might be sleazy, it isn't a crime.

If Trump committed a provable crime, impeach him.

Otherwise, let's all move on.
You'll never get me to defend most Kennedy's politically. Though I do think JFK did some great things for the US, namely kick starting Apollo and all the good that came from that program etc.

But, I still disagree a crime wasn't committed here. It is another very clear violation of the Emoluments Clause IMO (which doesn't matter I know). How do you think the call would of went or what would happen to military aid had he even just disagreed with Trump? I think we all know the answer to that and both DJT/Zelensky certainly knew what would happen.

Plus, there is quite a bit more to come out I'm guessing in regards to Giuliani and this matter. It is just one phone call.

Any way, thanks for the civil discourse even though we disagree.
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      09-25-2019, 11:35 AM   #86
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Missed it by that much, no quid pro quo no criminal act. Keep digging dimwits
Law, can we have one political thread without these kind of meaningless posts please? From either side of the political spectrum.
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      09-25-2019, 11:37 AM   #87
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Quit getting fooled with the same ploy? Hoping isnt an effective plan.
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      09-25-2019, 11:42 AM   #88
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“Today the Republican majority is not judging the president with fairness, but impeaching him with a vengeance"

"In the investigation of the president, fundamental principles which Americans hold dear -- fairness, privacy, checks and balances -- have been seriously violated and why? Because we are here today because the Republicans in the House are paralyzed with hatred of President Clinton. ... Until the Republicans free themselves of that hatred, our country will suffer”

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi declared on the House floor in December 1998.

That's it, I'm finished with this.
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