[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

Not calling you out on this, but you have any sources? They would provide an interesting read.

Sure.

Here's the main one that really shut them down:

(PDF)

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf

Abstract

The CNW Marketing Research, Inc.’s 2007 “Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles
From Concept to Disposal” caught the interest of the media and the public with its claim that a
Hummer H3 SUV has a lower life-cycle energy cost than a Toyota Prius hybrid. Closer
inspection suggests that the report’s conclusions rely on faulty methods of analysis, untenable
assumptions, selective use and presentation of data, and a complete lack of peer review. Even the
most cursory look reveals serious biases and flaws: the average Hummer H1 is assumed to travel
379,000 miles and last for 35 years, while the average Prius is assumed to last only 109,000
miles over less than 12 years. These selective and unsupported assumptions distort the final
results. A quick re-analysis with peer-reviewed data leads to completely opposite conclusions:
the life-cycle energy requirements of hybrids and smaller cars are far lower than Hummers and
other large SUVs. CNW should either release its full report, including methods, assumptions,
and data, or the public should ignore its conclusions. Unfortunately, “Dust to Dust” has already

distorted the public debate.

[flyinb501]

Originally Posted by dr325i

From the Republican perspective -- no it is not worth since everything is calculated in Dollars. It takes too long to equalize savings with extra paid when purchased.

From NORMAL human's view -- yes. Less gas useage, less polution, less Earth destruction, etc...

Similarly with the solar panels -- expensive, Republicans don't like them. Never mind that those and other alternative energy sources can save the World...

Go back to the politics section D bag.

[BMWFanatic2008]

It depends. If you drive A LOT every single day and plan to keep your car for a long time, eventually it will pay off.

[ragingclue]

Just get a Fit.

[josephr25]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

Sure.

Here's the main one that really shut them down:

(PDF)

http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integr...r_vs_prius.pdf

Just read that; thanks. I guess you can't believe everything on the internet. At least this paper has sources.

[Bartman619]

My answer is NO. Hybrids are only a stop gap/band aid. We will evetually have to make and drive vehicles that will not be powered by fossil fuels. Hydrogen is a negative too..just too expensive. I'm thinking all electric. My two cents.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Bartman619

My answer is NO. Hybrids are only a stop gap/band aid. We will evetually have to make and drive vehicles that will not be powered by fossil fuels. Hydrogen is a negative too..just too expensive. I'm thinking all electric. My two cents.

Stop Gap/Band Aid isn't even remotely close to the right term for hybrids. Bridge technology is more accurate. Electric cars are the future, but guess where the technology is being perfected......

Besides that, the current crop of hybrids are MUCH cleaner than any other comparable vehicles on the road, even the "clean diesels", which cost just as much and don't return the same mileage.

You can't really expect people to sit around waiting on a new propulsion technology to emerge before buying a new car, and for a person who is concerned with practicality and economy, hybrids are a good choice.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by Kampfer

Just read that; thanks. I guess you can't believe everything on the internet. At least this paper has sources.

No problem.

As the writer says, the public debate has already been tainted by the original "study", and it's a shame. The media should really be more careful before blaring something like that in a headline without any fact checking at all.

[ToothDoc]

It depends on the hybrid. Based on fuel efficiency, cost to run, initial cost, resale, etc. the Camry hybrid comes out actually SAVING the average person money in 3-4 years. Some hybrids will take a decade to break even.

I must agree, the hybrid technology is more of a stepping stone towards full electric. There are already kits available for the Prius that converts it to a plug-in hybrid.

We had a hybrid SUV and all spring and fall, we averaged 27 mpg and summer and winters we average 24 mpg (RX400h) while our RX330 averaged only 19-21 mpg. Oh, the hybrid was also faster. It's a energy retrieving technique and they typically use a CVT which also optimizes for fuel efficiency and by having an electric motor, they're able to boost the "first gear" because ratios are kind of tall on CVTs because of their inability to handle a great deal of torque.

I'm actually considering the next Prius - they have and EPA of 50 mpg! Even faster and more efficient than the last one. I'll probably convert it to plug in so I'll fuel up maybe once every few months.

Clean diesels is just more evolution of old stuff. I'm sick of reading "Oh, just get a VW TDI".

[tofu4]

I hate hybrids. I had an Altima hybrid and drove the civic hybrid and prius for a while. They all sucked. It didn't save much gas vs a conventional fuel efficient car. I do 65% highway driving so the hybrid was useless for me.

My old MR2 n/a got better mileage than my hybrid.

[carve]

Originally Posted by Bartman619

My answer is NO. Hybrids are only a stop gap/band aid. We will evetually have to make and drive vehicles that will not be powered by fossil fuels. Hydrogen is a negative too..just too expensive. I'm thinking all electric. My two cents.

Totally. That's why I still drive a Model T. These "modern" cars are just a stop-gap to the fusion-powered flying car I'll eventually get

Electric is the way of the future, but when range is a consideration we'll be using fossil fuels for a LONG time. I think eventually, people will have small electrics for around-town commuting, and maybe a more traditional car for whoever drives less and for road trips. A hybrid is a good way to split the difference while we're working on the range and cost issues.

As far as cost effectiveness goes, when gas is expensive, if you do a lot of city driving a good case could be made for the cheaper hybrids (e.g. Prius, Insight, Escape). If you drive mostly highway, it's not worth it. The luxury hybrids are never cost effective and only exist to make a political statement (not that there's anything wrong with that- thanks for the technology development $)

[E90SLAM]

My boss's Prius just got some problems with its battery....after 4-5 years of driving....

[cougfan335]

No these hybrids are actually pretty terrible economically and environmentally. It takes too ling to save in gas the extra you pay upfront and that $5k could be in a bank account earning you money. The batteries and shipping them around the world end up being far worse for the Earth anyways. Just go with any little 4 banger that your mom likes and can have a lot more fun with.

[cougfan335]

BTW best little high mileage car IMO Fiat 500. Hopefully they get here soon.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by cougfan335

The batteries and shipping them around the world end up being far worse for the Earth anyways. Just go with any little 4 banger that your mom likes and can have a lot more fun with.

Complete BS.

[Raja Ventureshield]

get the 2009 honda accord DIEsel. 51 mpg. sweet baby Jesussssssssss$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[MisterSkiMask]

Hybrids are for retards who buy into marketing hype

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090424....re-than-50-mpg

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080624....iency-marathon

Look at any of the premium diesels offered in Europe. Current hybrids are lame, as I said earlier in this thread they are a good place for research and a stepping stone to future technology, but currently LAME.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Hybrids are for retards who buy into marketing hype

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9090424....re-than-50-mpg

http://www.worldcarfans.com/9080624....iency-marathon

Look at any of the premium diesels offered in Europe. Current hybrids are lame, as I said earlier in this thread they are a good place for research and a stepping stone to future technology, but currently LAME.

Are you 12 or something?

You're talking about retarded and then suggesting that a person looking at a $23k hybrid should buy an Audi that costs at least 50% more, and isn't even sold in the US?

What EXACTLY is lame about a hybrid? I don't think you have a clue what you're talking about.

Most European diesels aren't offered here for one of three reasons:

A - They don't meet US emissions standards
B - They don't meet US crash standards
C - They're too expensive to sell here once they do

[MisterSkiMask]

The main reason that modern diesels are not available in the US is because of lack of consumer education. People have prejudices against diesels based on poor quality diesels that were available in the 70' and 80's. Gas got cheap again and people in the US stopped caring about fuel efficiency.

The Audi's are just the cars that are getting press, any of our european brothers and sisters can chime in on the affordability and fuel economy of modern diesels.

Part of the reason that diesels don't meet US emission standards is because our fuel is dirty, but that is being changed as we type.

How many times do I have to say it? Current Hybrids are lame because they are not any better the conventional alternatives (which I have mentioned).

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Part of the reason that diesels don't meet US emission standards is because our fuel is dirty, but that is being changed as we type.

How many times do I have to say it? Current Hybrids are lame because they are not any better the conventional alternatives (which I have mentioned).

The US has had low sulfer diesel for several years now.

Hybrids are cleaner than any of the deisels being sold in the US right now, don't cost any more when comparably options, and get better mileage when compared to deisels of equal size. They have a significant advantage in nearly every aspect, you just don't want to accept it.

[MisterSkiMask]

Originally Posted by jeremyc74

The US has had low sulfer diesel for several years now.

Hybrids are cleaner than any of the deisels being sold in the US right now, don't cost any more when comparably options, and get better mileage when compared to deisels of equal size. They have a significant advantage in nearly every aspect, you just don't want to accept it.

The last time I really gave any thought to low sulfur fuel was when I was talking to a Cat fleet mechanic, I guess that could have been three or four years ago when they were freaking out about the implementation of the "new" fuel. Either way I am more of a car enthusiast then a fuel enthusiast. When I think about it that makes sense, fuel implemented a couple years later vehicles that run on that fuel finally become available... logical progression wouldn't you say?

Now I know you don't want to, but consider the "extra materials" involved in a prius. Mining the materials for the battery, shipping the materials to a facility where it is legal to turn them into batteries, shipping the batteries to the final assembly plants, assembling the "extra" parts, shipping the extra heavy (minor, in shipping I know) cars to their final consumers. That is just the battery, not all the other "extra" components. Now consider all the costs and environmental impact involved in safely taking one off the road. Shipping the battery to a facility (country) where it is legal to recycle it etc. In the end you are just exporting pollution. Congratulations.

Like I have said, current Hybrids are lame, you can the same mileage from a diesel (check europe) with less environmental impact. I think good things will come from research related to Hybrids, but the CURRENTLY available hybrids are lame.

[jeremyc74]

Originally Posted by MisterSkiMask

Like I have said, current Hybrids are lame, you can the same mileage from a diesel (check europe) with less environmental impact. I think good things will come from research related to Hybrids, but the CURRENTLY available hybrids are lame.

And like I've said 50 times already NO YOU CAN NOT get the same mileage from a diesel, at least not one that meets US emissions standards, and if you can, PROVE IT!

It's pointless to "check europe" for something I want to buy in the US now isn't it?

The only thing lame here is your argument. Energy use during manufacturing is built into the price. If the Prius used drastically more energy to make, it would have to cost a lot more. You're still hanging on to the "Dust to Dust" theroy, and it's already been completely debunked. 80% of the energy cosumed by a car is done so during normal use, with less than 10% happening during the manufacturing process.