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      05-09-2019, 10:51 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post
Then why bother with the M moniker?

I am not suggesting it should be as nimble as an M2, but it should not be cruiser either...who knows where it will end up on that spectrum, but I don't think they should call it an M8 unless they've tried to make it the best driving car for its respective segment.

I am not sure that the majority of these features/gizmos are in alignment with trying to be the best driving car in the segment...
Part of the problem is that I don't know what segment the 8 series really fits into now. Is it an S class coupe competitor? Or AMG GT? 911?

I always thought of the 8 series as a larger GT car.
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      05-09-2019, 11:21 PM   #68
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The video felt a bit like an awkward porn intro.
Wow that was so silly but I couldn't help but laugh. Hilarious
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      05-10-2019, 03:48 AM   #69
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A step forward

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Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Need more info on what actually happens when adjusting "Chassis settings "



I like the idea of a track mode to quickly remove the nannies.. I hope it also eliminates TPMS tire pressure nannies.
I agree, but still hope they have retained the suspension, throttle and steering shortcuts somewhere as I often make quick adjustments while on the move.

Can’t wait to drive it and hope it will not be just a coupe version of the M5.
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      05-10-2019, 04:51 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by BMWModel3 View Post
BMW ///M: Creating modes for things you didn't know you needed different modes for.

How about less modes and electronic nannies and less weight and get back to making "The Ultimate Driving Machine"
They are NEVER going back. Car companies from Ferrari to Kia never "go back" especially from a technical standpoint so I wish people would stop referring to the Ultimate Driving Machine "good ol days". If you want a car that exceeds your driving skills and makes you look like you can half way drive a car fast without wadding it up buy an M car. Or an M comp. Or a CS. BMW still makes bad ass drivers cars. There I said it.
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      05-10-2019, 07:27 AM   #71
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The 'gentleman's racer' slogan illustrates the double-faced nature of the 8 Series and its two-fold strategy: competing against 2 door GT luxury coupés (S-Class Coupé, DB11, Continental GT, Granturismo...) all the while competing against pure sportscars and their multiple layer lineup (mainly 911 and AMG GT). The latter however have a weight advantage over the 8er and would require it to put up a higher power output. So how about this?

M8 625ps
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      05-10-2019, 08:05 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Your going to be disappointed. When in recent memory has anything that has gone electronic not sucked on the first few iterations?

They're still sorting out the EPS after how many years and updates? I don't understand when you have other companies like Porsche who seem to have come very close to what hydraulic steering was.
Yeah I've wondered this as well. I don't know if Porsche's R&D budget is THAT much bigger than BMWs but what they make simply just works. I don't know why BMW seem to find this so hard, DCT vs PDK is not even a contest.
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      05-10-2019, 09:19 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Your going to be disappointed. When in recent memory has anything that has gone electronic not sucked on the first few iterations?

They're still sorting out the EPS after how many years and updates? I don't understand when you have other companies like Porsche who seem to have come very close to what hydraulic steering was.
Yeah I've wondered this as well. I don't know if Porsche's R&D budget is THAT much bigger than BMWs but what they make simply just works. I don't know why BMW seem to find this so hard, DCT vs PDK is not even a contest.
@sq86

I know just enough engineering to be dangerous, but it seems to me that EPS is essentially an algorithm, and either the algorithm isn't accurate enough , or there is not enough processing speed to provide faster response , or potentially both.

BMWs algorithm certainly lacked feel on center, and also the feedback upon return to center was originally non existent. They have been fine tuning it for a decade and making improvements that are recognized by enthusiasts, reviewers, and casual drivers.

in the domain of EPS it's Porsche that is the best , Honda second, (Beginning with S2000) and I'm not even sure there is an honorable mention.


Is Porsche EPS BETTER than manual hydraulic feel ? Would you prefer to have sport modes of EPS vs a hydraulic rack. ? I think the answer here for most is no.


In the domain of automated transmission, once again , Porsche PDK is best , BMW DKG is a fairly distant second ... ? I'm absolutely unqualified to rank DCT transmissions so I will let others chime in here. Is the DCT transmission better than manual ? In this case , certainly many say DCT is faster, however other drivers prefer more involvement with MT. One thing that is clear however is that there is not universal agreement that the electronic transmission is superior.

In the domain of drive by wire throttle, did it ever be come preferred by drivers, or simply accepted ?


I suppose magnetic and other electronic shock. Absorber systems is another domain.... is there universal agreement that magnetic systems are Better than hydraulic ?


As we move to electrohydraulic braking systems , once again ... as with EPS.. there will be adjustable modes , but will the feel be better than a system with a brake booster ? History already is telling us an answer.
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      05-10-2019, 11:11 AM   #74
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I feel like I'll forever remain stuck in the BMW era from 2000-2015... anything prior to that is too rudimentary anything newer has just become too ridiculous.
You are not the only one
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      05-10-2019, 11:57 AM   #75
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Tell you one thing..that M850i X-drive is an object of desire that makes me can't wait to grow up and get older (I'm 60 going on 20 and was doing power slides in MDM mode yesterday in my CS ). But damn...that story and cover shot in Automobile magazine couple months ago had me hook line and sinker... crystal shifter and all. Dear lord what a car!!! Of course the stock market this week had me rethinking that position. :
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      05-10-2019, 12:07 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Your going to be disappointed. When in recent memory has anything that has gone electronic not sucked on the first few iterations?

They're still sorting out the EPS after how many years and updates? I don't understand when you have other companies like Porsche who seem to have come very close to what hydraulic steering was.
Yeah I've wondered this as well. I don't know if Porsche's R&D budget is THAT much bigger than BMWs but what they make simply just works. I don't know why BMW seem to find this so hard, DCT vs PDK is not even a contest.
@sq86

I know just enough engineering to be dangerous, but it seems to me that EPS is essentially an algorithm, and either the algorithm isn't accurate enough , or there is not enough processing speed to provide faster response , or potentially both.

BMWs algorithm certainly lacked feel on center, and also the feedback upon return to center was originally non existent. They have been fine tuning it for a decade and making improvements that are recognized by enthusiasts, reviewers, and casual drivers.

in the domain of EPS it's Porsche that is the best , Honda second, (Beginning with S2000) and I'm not even sure there is an honorable mention.


Is Porsche EPS BETTER than manual hydraulic feel ? Would you prefer to have sport modes of EPS vs a hydraulic rack. ? I think the answer here for most is no.


In the domain of automated transmission, once again , Porsche PDK is best , BMW DKG is a fairly distant second ... ? I'm absolutely unqualified to rank DCT transmissions so I will let others chime in here. Is the DCT transmission better than manual ? In this case , certainly many say DCT is faster, however other drivers prefer more involvement with MT. One thing that is clear however is that there is not universal agreement that the electronic transmission is superior.

In the domain of drive by wire throttle, did it ever be come preferred by drivers, or simply accepted ?


I suppose magnetic and other electronic shock. Absorber systems is another domain.... is there universal agreement that magnetic systems are Better than hydraulic ?


As we move to electrohydraulic braking systems , once again ... as with EPS.. there will be adjustable modes , but will the feel be better than a system with a brake booster ? History already is telling us an answer.
I think all all those things make a car faster and safer at speed. And track specs sell cars which BMW is in business for. Even if most of us don't track them on regular basis. Personally ...I like the new stuff. The guys that like the old school feel of a true drivers car should go out and buy the (used) car they like. Lots of them out there to be had from several manufacturers. To each there own.
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      05-10-2019, 01:18 PM   #77
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Amen!

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Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
They are NEVER going back. Car companies from Ferrari to Kia never "go back" especially from a technical standpoint so I wish people would stop referring to the Ultimate Driving Machine "good ol days". If you want a car that exceeds your driving skills and makes you look like you can half way drive a car fast without wadding it up buy an M car. Or an M comp. Or a CS. BMW still makes bad ass drivers cars. There I said it.
I agree. I just wish they work on making the styling a bit more distinctive.
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      05-10-2019, 04:15 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
The 'gentleman's racer' slogan illustrates the double-faced nature of the 8 Series and its two-fold strategy: competing against 2 door GT luxury coupés (S-Class Coupé, DB11, Continental GT, Granturismo...) all the while competing against pure sportscars and their multiple layer lineup (mainly 911 and AMG GT). The latter however have a weight advantage over the 8er and would require it to put up a higher power output. So how about this?

M8 625ps
M8 Competition 650ps
M8 CS 680ps
M8 CSL 720ps
🤔
I think the launch versions will be identical to the M5 power levels. I’d expect the LCI for both cars will get a 15-25ps bump but nothing more.

I personally think they should bump it at launch to have more than the gt63s but I don’t see if happening. The Urus already has 478kw or 650ps and I expect the new RS6/7 to share that engine as well - another thing for BMW to consider
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      05-10-2019, 05:12 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
They are NEVER going back. Car companies from Ferrari to Kia never "go back" especially from a technical standpoint so I wish people would stop referring to the Ultimate Driving Machine "good ol days". If you want a car that exceeds your driving skills and makes you look like you can half way drive a car fast without wadding it up buy an M car. Or an M comp. Or a CS. BMW still makes bad ass drivers cars. There I said it.
Remember the Porsche 996 headlights design (+ Boxster) ? Generally considered as a design change gaffe - the majority of the audience never liked it and never will. Porsche did its home work again and reverted to the 'oldskool' design. Still to date, 996 resale prices don't fare well, compared to other 911 iterations.
The Second Biggest Argument When it Comes to the Porsche 911
Hint: It Has to do with the Headlights
January 18, 2018 - By Bryan Campbell
source: here
Few cars lay claim to a more fervent fan base and following than the Porsche 911. Every time a new generation 911 breaks cover, each detail, no matter how minute, is pored over with incredible scrutiny by Porschephiles around the world. Of course, some detractors say the 911 hasn’t changed at all since 1963, to which the Neunelfer faithful will scoff.
The most significant change in Porsche 911 history, the switch from air-cooled engines to liquid cooled engines caused the largest divide in the camp and probably the most heated arguments when it comes to discussing which 911 holds the title of ‘Best in History.’ Volumes of books that would put Encyclopedia Britannica to shame could be written on the arguments, talking points and opinions that make a good case for any one model. Performance and handling is one thing — the constant development of technology will always drive that forward — but the design of the 911 is iconic, and when Porsche messes with it mobs grab their pitchforks and gather outside Stuttgart. No two 911s have caused a bigger upset than the 930 Flactbau (flat nose or slant nose, ’75-’89) and the 996 (’98-’04) with its ‘fried egg’ shaped headlights. The question is: which one is worse?
The argument recently cropped up in the office Slack channel after I put together an installment of my used-car gems shopping guide ‘Found‘ and the theme happened to be Porsche-centric. Now, I’m firmly in the camp that the 930 slant nose is a good-looking car. Slightly more controversial is that I prefer it to the regular, non-slant 930, with the iconic front fenders and round headlights — I’ve been yelled at before because of that opinion. But I’m not entirely alone. Our watch writer and self-professed “quirky car lover,” Andrew Connor, says, “it’s neat, but I prefer the regular 930. You have to lean into ’80s-ness for the slant nose to appreciate it though.” GP’s Photo Editor Henry Phillips is a little more clear-cut, saying the slant nose is “objectively not as pretty as a ‘normie’ 930.”
“Normies” aside, there’s a good reason the slant nose has a, well, slanted nose instead of the conventional Porsche design: racing and aerodynamic efficiency. In the ‘70s, Porsche engineer Norbert Singer found a loophole in the rulebook for sports car championships in which the 911 was taking part. As it turned out, significant modifications to the front fenders were allowed, and for the 934 race car this meant the front end could be flattened entirely. Vents cut into the top of the fender would decrease drag and increase downforce — two vitally important modifications if you’re interested in turning out quick laps at high speeds.
Through a ‘Special Order program’ at Porsche, beginning in 1981, customers could order their roadgoing 930s with the flat nose specification. Only 948 slant noses were ordered that way from the factory, though those low production numbers might be attributed to the $30,000-plus mark up for the in-house modification. Some owners went so far as to get the modification done by aftermarket means, but what is almost unheard of is an owner doing the opposite: reverting a 930 slant nose to a “normie” 911 body style. I don’t think the disgust with the design was ever so strong that customers resorted to “fixing” it in such a way. For that specific behavior — retrofitting parts to a new 911 design — you have to look to the 996 and its infamous ‘fried egg’ shaped headlights.
Not only does the 996 generation mark the end of the air-cooled 911 engine (the planets were not aligning in the 996’s favor), but Porsche designers decided to make a drastic change to the 911’s iconic headlights as well. The resulting shape became the literal and figurative face of the most hated 911 of all, a sentiment that may be the one thing the majority of Porsche fans can agree on. Associate editor Nick Caruso agreed, quipping “a couple beat up Maglites are slightly more preferable than 996 headlights.” But, unlike the slant nose, there are aftermarket kits to get rid of the un-Porsche amorphous blob headlights. Granted, most of those kits look awful and cheap, like they came off the back shelf at Pep Boys. Plastic pieces block out the majority of the headlight, giving the appearance of a round headlight. As if the driver couldn’t stand making pedestrians stare at the awkward projectors anymore.
After some digging, I found there a couple of custom shops out there that make a ‘Slant Nose’ kit for the 996, completely negating the spilled yolk-look altogether. And I don’t know if it’s because I’m a fan of the flactbau style or if the 996’s curves and silhouette lend themselves to the steeper profile, but a slant nose 996 is a damn-good-looking car. Which settles it — the only way to make the most controversial 911 better looking is to turn it into the second-most controversial 911.
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      05-10-2019, 05:32 PM   #80
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The most famous headlight gaffe of all time was when Jeep went to square headlights for a few years in the late 80s to mid 90's. Hard core Jeep enthusiasts were horrified . Jeep smartly went back to round but to this day people won't buy those years for that reason alone.

Anyway..I was speaking more to the advanced mechanicals rather than the appearance of BMWs. But since you bring it up.. talk about a car company with hi teck gizmos galore. It starts with a P. Another that starts with an A and yet another with an M. Hint: They are all from "the other side of the pond". Lol.
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      05-10-2019, 06:43 PM   #81
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BMW cockpit 1923 - 2014 : niice!
BMW 2016 digital cockpit : whaat*
BMW 2017 digital cockpit : stop! go back!*
BMW 2018 digital cockpit : BACKWARD DIALS :*

BMW future : TWO TACHOMETERS LOLOLOL*

this car brand is becoming a cartoon character of a design
We heard you the first time...
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      05-10-2019, 11:23 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dezzracer View Post
Tell you one thing..that M850i X-drive is an object of desire that makes me can't wait to grow up and get older (I'm 60 going on 20 and was doing power slides in MDM mode yesterday in my CS ). But damn...that story and cover shot in Automobile magazine couple months ago had me hook line and sinker... crystal shifter and all. Dear lord what a car!!! Of course the stock market this week had me rethinking that position. :
LOL one day when I'm ready for an M geeze.. I'll have to pick up an M8 or even an M6 gran coupe.
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      05-10-2019, 11:32 PM   #83
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      05-10-2019, 11:41 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Your going to be disappointed. When in recent memory has anything that has gone electronic not sucked on the first few iterations?

They're still sorting out the EPS after how many years and updates? I don't understand when you have other companies like Porsche who seem to have come very close to what hydraulic steering was.
Yeah I've wondered this as well. I don't know if Porsche's R&D budget is THAT much bigger than BMWs but what they make simply just works. I don't know why BMW seem to find this so hard, DCT vs PDK is not even a contest.
Yeah, it's infuriating. They hype the new G20 on how it's supposed to have better driving dynamics, and it does to the F3X generation, but it still falls short of Porsche IMO. (I'm just referring to steering at this point.) I still don't get the feel and feedback I want. Aiming for something better than the prior gen is good but it falls short of what they should be going for.
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      05-10-2019, 11:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3 Adjuster View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AD18 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Your going to be disappointed. When in recent memory has anything that has gone electronic not sucked on the first few iterations?

They're still sorting out the EPS after how many years and updates? I don't understand when you have other companies like Porsche who seem to have come very close to what hydraulic steering was.
Yeah I've wondered this as well. I don't know if Porsche's R&D budget is THAT much bigger than BMWs but what they make simply just works. I don't know why BMW seem to find this so hard, DCT vs PDK is not even a contest.
@sq86

I know just enough engineering to be dangerous, but it seems to me that EPS is essentially an algorithm, and either the algorithm isn't accurate enough , or there is not enough processing speed to provide faster response , or potentially both.

BMWs algorithm certainly lacked feel on center, and also the feedback upon return to center was originally non existent. They have been fine tuning it for a decade and making improvements that are recognized by enthusiasts, reviewers, and casual drivers.

in the domain of EPS it's Porsche that is the best , Honda second, (Beginning with S2000) and I'm not even sure there is an honorable mention.


Is Porsche EPS BETTER than manual hydraulic feel ? Would you prefer to have sport modes of EPS vs a hydraulic rack. ? I think the answer here for most is no.


In the domain of automated transmission, once again , Porsche PDK is best , BMW DKG is a fairly distant second ... ? I'm absolutely unqualified to rank DCT transmissions so I will let others chime in here. Is the DCT transmission better than manual ? In this case , certainly many say DCT is faster, however other drivers prefer more involvement with MT. One thing that is clear however is that there is not universal agreement that the electronic transmission is superior.

In the domain of drive by wire throttle, did it ever be come preferred by drivers, or simply accepted ?


I suppose magnetic and other electronic shock. Absorber systems is another domain.... is there universal agreement that magnetic systems are Better than hydraulic ?


As we move to electrohydraulic braking systems , once again ... as with EPS.. there will be adjustable modes , but will the feel be better than a system with a brake booster ? History already is telling us an answer.
Yeah I agree with everything that you said. The engineering behind the steering geometry is really interesting to me. Car and Driver had a great article on it and how it could be improved on EPS (pretty easy to find if you search for it).

I'm just amazed that a company that advertised "the ultimate driving machine" would offer up a subpar EPS. I realize it's never going to be as good as a hydraulic system but they should be able to get it close. It makes me think they don't care about it as much. Much of it is algorithms and geometry so it should be easily "fixable."
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      05-11-2019, 01:15 AM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sq86 View Post
Yeah I agree with everything that you said. The engineering behind the steering geometry is really interesting to me. Car and Driver had a great article on it and how it could be improved on EPS (pretty easy to find if you search for it).

I'm just amazed that a company that advertised "the ultimate driving machine" would offer up a subpar EPS. I realize it's never going to be as good as a hydraulic system but they should be able to get it close. It makes me think they don't care about it as much. Much of it is algorithms and geometry so it should be easily "fixable."
To be honest, the reason is that BMW and most other auto manufacturers long ago outsourced a ton of their component R&D to contractors like Bosch, Borg Warner, ZF, Getrag, GKN, etc.

This is why, most of the time, innovations appear across several manufacturers at once. The EPS is designed by Bosch. BMW can probably only tweak certain parameters. The firmware is probably written by Bosch employees to BMW requirements, just like the DME.

They are dealing with the limitations of the Bosch EPS system and what they were willing to pay for at the inception of the project. I'm not sure how Porsche does it better, but it's possible they just buy more expensive parts or have paid Bosch to do more work on the software.
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      05-11-2019, 04:53 AM   #87
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M8: 620ps, €180,000
M8 Competition: 650ps, €200,000.
I'd take the pricing with a grain of salt though as that would mean a €50,000-60,000 delta with the equivalent M5.
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      05-11-2019, 10:43 AM   #88
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