[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by glennQNYC

I'll add that safety and convenience features like autonomous driving systems are also major drivers of manual transmissions' demise.

Agree and have mentioned his in other topics on the MT vs. AT future.

So easy to simply isolate the gearbox type in theses discussions, as if the transmission is still a stand alone option. That simplicity is disappearing. Just as EPS allows driver assist and autonomous functions to be added, AT allows driver assist and autonomous features to be fitted.

The manual gearbox manufacturers are well aware of this, know they have to automate MT to be part of the future.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

What will you say when the M no longer offers a manual?

BMW M doesn't make anything I would buy anymore, so really I don't care. The brand is not what it used to be, I'm over it and have found elsewhere to satisfy my needs.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Of the few automatics I've driven in the 3-series and ATS, you cannot engage neutral from any gear. With a manual transmission, the ability of gaining neutral (i.e. clutch in) is sometimes vital to maintaining control of the vehicle, especially in inclement weather.

Can't speak for the ATS, but some/most dual clutch you can, PDK, Ferrari and a few others you can pull both paddles, BMW M DCT you can hold it to the left and it will go into N while moving.

As a suspected, a pretty weak reason to base your argument that a manual gives you more "control" on, which imo is not important and has nothing to do with driving. In terms of actual driving (track, spirited, normal driving) I can't see how you can say a manual offers more "control", I can't think of anything you can do (burnouts, launching, redline, rev-match, down-shifting, bounce off rev limiter, etc) that you can't do in a dct/smg/etc. Except maybe money shift it......

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Ever see some knucklehead in a Mustang GT or M3 leaving a Cars and Coffee trying to do a cool drift, lose it, and then eat a curb? That.

They usually hit the curb (spin) because they let off and over-corrected, not because they needed a clutch pedal to engage natural.

To do a proper drift, you just have to stay on the gas and properly correct. No need for a clutch, a clutch wouldn't have helped those knuckleheads that ate a curb.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by hans007

I'm just hoping I'll be able to get that used Mr2 or ND mx-5 and second parking spot in the next 5-6 years before manual cars disappear for good

We are decades away from manual cars disappearing for good. There might not be many new ones on the market but there will always be used ones. Grab one soon before the prices increase more than they already have.

[ScottAndrew]

Originally Posted by tdott

BMW M doesn't make anything I would buy anymore, so really I don't care. The brand is not what it used to be, I'm over it and have found elsewhere to satisfy my needs.

Are you sure? : )

[tdott]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

Are you sure? : )

Yes I only stick around for my interest in older platforms and because I still own two generations of M3s.

I don't plan to buy any of the newer BMWs. When I replace my E92m3, it won't be with another BMW but I'll probably continue to have an older bmw or two in my garage.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tdott

They usually hit the curb (spin) because they let off and over-corrected, not because they needed a clutch pedal to engage natural.

To do a proper drift, you just have to stay on the gas and properly correct. No need for a clutch, a clutch wouldn't have helped those knuckleheads that ate a curb.

Well, of the videos I've seen the cars are still pushing because engine torque is still connected to the wheels. The car slides, gets sideways pointed to the curb, the driver panics, let's off, the tires hook back up as their speed slows, thus sending the car into the curb under power because the automatic is still in gear. With a manual, with the clutch disengaged, the car is far easier to stop.

I've driven manual cars exclusively for over 40 years and did youth-enthused shit with far less powerful RWD and FWD cars trying to emulate my favorite stunt drivers that was far more agressive than some dork hyped up on caffeine, none of which an automatic would ever allow. Too add, I'm pretty sure every hoonnigan car Ken Block has built has a manual transmission.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, of the videos I've seen the cars are still pushing because engine torque is still connected to the wheels. The car slides, gets sideways pointed to the curb, the driver panics, let's off, the tires hook back up as their speed slows, thus sending the car into the curb under power because the automatic is still in gear. With a manual, with the clutch disengaged, the car is far easier to stop.

I've driven manual cars exclusively for over 40 years and did youth-enthused shit with RWD and FWD cars trying to emulate my favorite stunt drivers that was far more agressive than some dork hyped up on caffeine, none of which an automatic would ever allow. Too add, I'm pretty sure every hoonnigan car Ken Block has built has a manual transmission.

I'm no driving expert either, but I also don't see how disengaging the drivetrain would make the car easier to stop in the discussed scenario or otherwise. In my mind it'd do the complete opposite, but could be I'm not seeing things clearly. With the clutch disengaged, wouldn't the impact be just that much worse, seeing as there's no engine brake or any other drivetrain connection to slow the car even a bit? (obviously at this point they wouldn't be standing on the gas pedal, even if in gear)

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tdott

Can't speak for the ATS, but some/most dual clutch you can, PDK, Ferrari and a few others you can pull both paddles, BMW M DCT you can hold it to the left and it will go into N while moving.

As a suspected, a pretty weak reason to base your argument that a manual gives you more "control" on, which imo is not important and has nothing to do with driving. In terms of actual driving (track, spirited, normal driving) I can't see how you can say a manual offers more "control", I can't think of anything you can do (burnouts, launching, redline, rev-match, down-shifting, bounce off rev limiter, etc) that you can't do in a dct/smg/etc. Except maybe money shift it......

I was specifically speaking to the forth coming G20 which will have a ZF 8-speed, not a $1M Ferrari with a DCT or SMG. And the topic is the G20, which will be in a price range where a plain Jane torque converter auto will be used. So you can say mine is a weak argument when you inject cars with unconventional automated manual transmissions that are far above the $40K price range of the BMW 3-series, which I wasn't discussing.

[tdott]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Well, of the videos I've seen the cars are still pushing because engine torque is still connected to the wheels. The car slides, gets sideways pointed to the curb, the driver panics, let's off, the tires hook back up as their speed slows, thus sending the car into the curb under power because the automatic is still in gear. With a manual, with the clutch disengaged, the car is far easier to stop.

Lost all credibility with these statements, sounds like you don't have a sound understanding of how things work. I am done replying to a lost cause. You clearly can't articulate your one point about why you want BMW to keep making manuals.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by tdott

Lost all credibility with these statements, sounds like you don't have a sound understanding of how things work. I am done replying to a lost cause. You clearly can't articulate your one point about why you want BMW to keep making manuals.

Yeah, that's it, I don't have a sound understanding of how things work. Engine internals are heavy. LOL.

[KTN]

Originally Posted by tdott

[...] sounds like you don't have a sound understanding [...]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Yeah, that's it, I don't have a sound understanding [...]

Speaking of sound, anyone tried the new Harman Kardon sound sy...
Sorry.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by KTN

Speaking of sound, anyone tried the new Harman Kardon sound sy...
Sorry.

The one they pipe the M3 engine sound through?

[cdgatti]

Efthreeoh, I just built this Mini on their site.
https://www.miniusa.com/tools/learni...,3AB&year=2019
Could be a very fun car, and only $23,250. I didn't realize they were this good of a value.

[Firaxis]

Interesting topic, for the most of my driving life I've owned manual's simply because they're cheaper here and used to be more common place. My first auto was an Alfa Giulietta QV and I couldn't get on with it.

The TCT gearbox in the G had a rather dim-witted nature, coming from a slick six speed shifter in a Focus ST I got rather frustrated with the lack of control.

The Focus's handling was second to none but that came at the cost of ride comfort and when I started travelling for work again the novelty wore off quickly. Constantly shifting to neutral in traffic, clutch foot and compromised ride comfort for the sake of handling prowess and "engagement" wasn't the answer.

So, I bought a 335D and my opinion on automatics changed completely. It adapted to my driving style quickly, I found it engaging to use the flappy paddles on the odd B road trip... I couldn't fault it.

When I started doing less miles I traded the 335 in for an M140i MT, to say the least it didn't last long. Just like the Focus the novelty wore off quickly, with the addition of a clunky shifter and pedals too close together.

I'm back in the car search market test driving many options and whilst more standard M-sport BMW's may not be specifically the best at any single thing, they're IMO undoubtedly the best jack of all trades.

Engines are punchy and efficient giving more HP per euro than the competition around here, the steering is good enough without compromising ride comfort, they're not all that expensive comparatively, the dealers around here are all great, they're reliable, practical and you can have a lot of fun under the right circumstances.

For those reasons I'll be staying bimmer..!

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

If I didn't commute 175 miles round trip a day, I'd have something on the order of an M3.

175 miles per day and posting every 5 minutes.

You don’t have time to think about shifting.

[Transfer]

Lmao at you dinosaurs crying about the death of BMW and the manual transmission. Get over it. You are 1-2% or something of 3 series buyers and there is no logical reason BMW should or would cater to you. Buy those F30s like your lives depend on it so you can have a dumpster fire with a manual before they are gone. The G20 will surely prove the F30 was the worst 3 series.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

175 miles per day and posting every 5 minutes.

You don’t have time to think about shifting.

Exactly, I don't think about it, which is why I don't find driving a manual trans difficult, tedious, painful, or tiresome, like most of the wimps here

When I do drive the one automatic I do own I'm always thinking "why is it in the wrong fucking gear?"

[530iDriver]

Originally Posted by ScottAndrew

That’s true. I hear annual Stinger sales in Europe are deep into three figures

And yet, almost none are selling here.

[IK6SPEED]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Exactly, I don't think about it, which is why I don't find driving a manual trans difficult, tedious, painful, or tiresome, like most of the wimps here

When I do drive the one automatic I do own I'm always thinking "why is it in the wrong fucking gear?"

Yep. You don't think. Smartphone while Driving.

Glad you aren't doing your 175 mike daily commute here.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by IK6SPEED

Yep. You don't think. Smartphone while Driving.

Glad you aren't doing your 175 mike daily commute here.

Yeah, me too.