[shawnhayes]

Originally Posted by jmg

Not sure how this devolved into a ABS vs Threshold debate.

On how a manual transmission should brake better than an automatic.

Otherwise known as "poppycock"

Shawn

[IsleOfMs]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Seriously, like i said earlier, I started driving in the mid 1970's before there was such a thing as antilock braking systems in cars, other than rare instances in expensive luxury models as an option. At first ABS stood for "Automatic Braking System". Later in its implementation it changed to "Anti-lock Braking System". Whatever you think you can tell me how cars work and how brake systems work, I already know because I have more experience with it than you and watched the industry adopt it over the past 45 years. [Sorry, pulling the old man/life-long car enthusiast card .]

Also, you're overlooking the main component of old age... cognitive dissonance. Jesus is older than me and that idiot thinks he's a god. Nobody cares how old you are. I'm 50 btw. It only matters how fast your laptimes are.

I get why you're discounting the argument of some rando on the internet. That's why I gave you a test you could run. It works best in the snow bc it's easy to keep the ABS active long enough to modulate the pedal correctly.

It's also possible you think we're comparing a skidding car to a car with ABS. Yes, the car with ABS will out stop the skidding car every time. But there's another level which "not quite engaging the ABS in the first place". This level doesn't require the computers to release the brakes ever. That's better than pumping.

https://flowracers.com/blog/abs-trac...od-for-racing/
"It Can Increase The Stopping Distance

As the brakes are not being constantly applied, the car’s stopping distance may increase due to it taking longer to slow down."

It's a similar logic to traction control. And I admit TC has gotten better since 2000. Back in the early aughts, I autocrossed a 2000 Boxster S. I heard the other guys say they were faster with TC off than on. What? That's unlikely, I thought. Porsche knows more about motorsport than these guys. It's X times a second, faster than a human can respond, blah blah. But, I, younger and more open minded than you, decided the reasonable thing to do is test it. So I did my next run with it disabled and immediately dropped 2 seconds a lap. I had already been winning my class, but with TC off I began beating much harder classes as well.

Can I do anything 100s of times/second? Nope. Can I do anything as fast as a computer? Nope. Does that matter? Nope. Because the TC is designed as a safety feature. It's designed to overreact when the wheels slip. A skilled driver can hold on to some non-zero level of slip and come out of the corners much faster than someone who is aiming at zero slip. This is the same reason ABS is not the ultimate performance.

[IsleOfMs]

[QUOTE=jmg;29314463]That's actually pretty surprising given Scott is a professional. I managed faster times threshold braking in a course that ends with a stop box over abs braking, and I am no professional. /QUOTE]

My only experience stopping without abs is karts and those are rear brakes so you can tell you're locking up when the rear starts to come around.

I think I'd be faster in a car WITH abs than a car without but in that car WITH ABS, I'm faster still when I modulate so that the abs is not engaged.

A better driver than I, (read: real racer, not just a track and autox junky like myself) could definitely sense lockup well enough to modulate even in a car with no ABS on board.

[IsleOfMs]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

No, it matters if you miss the deer...

If I see a deer, I brake hard enough to engage ABS, modulate to just barely where the pedal is no longer pulsating, and enjoy the fact I've minimized my braking distance and best chance for success.

[jmg]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So I've tried to get some empirical data on that topic and can't find any either way. What I have experienced with my automatic 4x4 truck in low range on grass, that it will overpower the brakes (ABS kicks in) and cause the tires to rip up the surface of my yard; I have shitty mountain grass BTW. Also as everyone knows, in a torque converter automatic once you let off the brakes the vehicle creeps forward, which to me says there is always engine torque at play in an automatic.

Again, max braking force is the antithesis of ABS, so it doesn't matter. ABS literally releases the brake to regain grip, reducing max braking force to decrease braking distance.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Now researching that, I did find that DCT can be programmed to release both clutches when the computer senses strong brake use. So that kind of supports my contention that clutch-in emergency braking is better than keeping engine torque running through the drivetrain.

I think you have misunderstood why we clutch in during emergency braking.

Clutch in emergency braking in a manual is to prevent the engine from shutting off. We want the engine to keep running to power the braking and steering systems. If we don't clutch in, there is a good chance that the wheels will lock or spin too slowly and kill the engine. It has nothing to do with decreasing braking distance.

The DCT does the same because it will, too, die for the same reason. Again, nothing to do with decreasing braking distance.

A torque converter doesn't need to disengage because it will continue to run even if the wheels are not spinning. Again, nothing to do with braking distance.


edited for clarity

[UPSROD]

Now completely off the track!!!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by shawnhayes

Sounds like a YouTube opportunity. Because the experts say you can't. I'd like to see somebody prove them wrong.

Because as you point out, the physics say you CAN, if you can hold the perfect braking pressure right before the wheel locks.

Shawn

Yeah I mean, I know what I have experienced with threshold braking. I'm also willing to accept that I don't know everything, and that there are many factors that could result in ABS outperforming threshold braking. It's just that suddenly this has become the cornerstone of the manual vs auto argument for some reason, when clearly, it's not.

[Theruleslawyer]

Originally Posted by jmg

I think you have misunderstood why we clutch in during emergency braking.

Clutch in emergency braking in a manual is to prevent the engine from shutting off. We want the engine to keep running to power the braking and steering systems. If we don't clutch in, there is a good chance that the wheels will lock or spin too slowly and kill the engine. It has nothing to do with decreasing braking distance.

The DCT does the same because it will, too, die for the same reason. Again, nothing to do with decreasing braking distance.

A torque converter doesn't need to disengage because it will continue to run even if the wheels are not spinning. Again, nothing to do with braking distance.


edited for clarity

Also in a spin you can suddenly reverse the direction of the wheels relative to the direction of travel. Thats a recipe to break expensive bits.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by UPSROD

Now completely off the track!!!

Yup.

ALL BECAUSE i said i enjoy auto more than a manual haha

Manual fanboys really couldn't just scroll past that post, they had to say something like, "NO WAY, MANUAL IS THE ONLY FUN YOU CAN HAVE! IF YOU DON'T DRIVE A MANUAL THAT MEANS YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A MANUAL!" #SAVETHEDEADARTSOCALLEDMANUAL

[Daisy518]

I've enjoyed my manual 2013 hardtop convertible M3. Ready to sell it bc need to buy car for my kid lol. Mint condition, 55k miles. LMK if interested to see more detail. Thanks!

[jmg]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Yup.

ALL BECAUSE i said i enjoy auto more than a manual haha

Manual fanboys really couldn't just scroll past that post, they had to say something like, "NO WAY, MANUAL IS THE ONLY FUN YOU CAN HAVE! IF YOU DON'T DRIVE A MANUAL THAT MEANS YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO DRIVE A MANUAL!" #SAVETHEDEADARTSOCALLEDMANUAL

I mean, I want to save the manual too, but some people treat it like its their religion or identity. There are bigger issues to put energy into.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by jmg

I mean, I want to save the manual too, but some people treat it like its their religion or identity. There are bigger issues to put energy into.

Definitely. Manual still has some place for certain people and applications.

But people think if you're not currently driving a manual it means you can't handle it or you're not skilled enough to keep driving it which is fucking laughable.

Or people think you can only have fun driving a car if it's a manual. Which is also fucking laughable.

Been driving manuals for over 2 decades. I see almost zero enjoyment in the act anymore. The only reason why i still have my manual car is because of the looks, power, the sound and the attention it brings. The car might be gone soon anyway to make room for both my C8's. Gotta keep the auto going strong!!!

[bmw1racer]

Jeez, this thread seems to have completely devolved into a "Let's bitch about people who like driving a manual tranny."

[AlpineBoost]

I've been driving our DCT Passat over the last 2 months since my E92 went down. I've driven either a 5MT or 6MT practically every day for the past 20+ years, and as I've only owned manual cars for myself, I was pretty miserable driving an auto. We picked up a '22 Veloster N 6MT last Saturday and I never thought I'd be so happy to drive a Hyundai Much better week for me driving the VN every day and having that third pedal back. Can't wait to get my E92 back in a couple weeks and get rid of the Passat soon for another car with a 6MT.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

Jeez, this thread seems to have completely devolved into a "Let's bitch about people who like driving a manual tranny."

Well, that and the people trying to rationalize their auto transmissions as manual...

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

Jeez, this thread seems to have completely devolved into a "Let's bitch about people who like driving a manual tranny."

That is what this thread has always been. No one ever stated others can't have funny driving an automatic. A few have stated they personally only have fun driving a manual. Some or someone in particular takes that personal opinion as an attack.

Originally Posted by RM7

Well, that and the people trying to rationalize their auto transmissions as manual...

That started on bimmerpost when the E9x M3 got DCT. To this day, people will still argue in that forum the DCT is a manual.

[eluded]

No all the cars are stick

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by bmw1racer

Jeez, this thread seems to have completely devolved into a "Let's bitch about people who like driving a manual tranny."

Or do you mean, let the manual people bitch about others who may or may not like a manual (which isn't always the case).

I'll recap for you.

Post # 23 was the first real post about someone stating they don't want manual. No harm done.

Post # 54 was the second real post about someone stating they don't want manual. Seems that it starts to get cooking with manual purists parading the thread as if they need to build their army in case they have to defend the manual.

My post at #137 was my take on the subject. No harm done. No one refuted so far.

Then blue87 and i were having a friendly back and forth about our OPNIONS on the pros and cons and why we prefer one or another. So far no one was butthurt. Or were they actually? Because post #152 seems to have started the fire on the sarcasm.


Then post #167 which seems to have sprayed the entire thread with fuel to start this whole thing. Not saying it's his fault. He was simply stating an innocent opinion of his, in which i agreed on, and then someone REALLY got butthurt.

And then the thread spiraled in many different directions, which made zero sense to the subject at hand. Almost as if people are coming up with aimless reasoning to help them justify their argument in which they know they are losing, or will lose anyway. It just doesn't make sense.

So if you think about it. The only people that are really bitching in this thread, are the manual people. The auto people are actually dropping sense in the thread.

[UPSROD]

Driving a manual does NOT make your dick any bigger!!! My daughters can both drive a stick shift car!

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Saying an automatic transmission in manual mode shifts like a manual transmission literally makes no sense.

The only BMW transmission you could remotely say that about is the SMG. In the E46 M3 the SMG is literally the exact same transmission as the manual, just has hydraulics working the clutch for the driver. Manual swaps are so easy in that car because internals are identical. All that it needs is some minor machining on bellhousing for detents. One of the main reasons a lot of people hate the SMG, because it acts like a true manual gearbox. Inexperienced drivers get in a SMG car and go "what is wrong with this thing?". It takes a little skill to get an SMG to drive smooth.

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Saying an automatic transmission in manual mode shifts like a manual transmission literally makes no sense.

The whole notion that you have control in a manual and NOT in an automatic (when in manual mode) isn't true.

Most modern day automatics can hold the RPM's in manual mode and in auto mode as well. Hence why there's different settings in most or all of modern day high performance cars.

Most automatics in manual mode will let you bounce off the rev limiter. Some, i believe, will automatically shift up for you, to protect the engine i assume.

So where is the manual purist take on this debate which shouldn't have been started in the first place?

Can you hold rpm's or have "control" in an auto just as you would in a manual? Yes

Can you have fun and/or enjoy an auto just as you would in a manual? Yes

What other nonsense do manual purists need to pour into a discussion like this just to help them sleep better at night?

No one is saying anyone is dumb or wrong for wanting or currently driving a manual. Quite frankly, no one gives a shit. I know i don't. Couldn't care less if you flood your entire neighborhood with manuals. Go for it. Have a manualfest.

But yes, you can absolutely HAVE FUN AND ENJOY an automatic, just as manual drivers can enjoy and have fun in their manual.


inb4 manual people start talking about some other bullshit which would make no sense in this discussion. Let's talk about tires now. Or better yet, i bet they start talking about headlights and how they're only useful in a manual car.

[G80indy]

Admins
Please shut this down
It's past ridiculous