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BMW M8 Forum and 8 Series Forum BMW M8 and 8-Series General Discussion Bone stock M850i hits the Mustang AWD Dyno - 501 WHP and 549 TQ

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      02-10-2020, 01:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LemonOne View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPINA_DREAMS View Post
Advertised HP & TQ are measured from the crank. So factoring in a 20% driver train power loss, the car is actually pushing over 600HP at the crank.
I'm curious, how do you know there is a 20% drive train loss?
Is there data for this? or is this BMW specific?
I thought cars made these days lose less power loss from the wheel.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ALPINA_DREAMS View Post
Advertised HP & TQ are measured from the crank. So factoring in a 20% driver train power loss, the car is actually pushing over 600HP at the crank.
I'm curious, how do you know there is a 20% drive train loss?
Is there data for this? or is this BMW specific?
I thought cars made these days lose less power loss from the wheel.
It's a guesstimate, but factoring in the AWD system and all the accessories 20% seems plausible.
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      02-10-2020, 02:49 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by ALPINA_DREAMS View Post
It's a guesstimate, but factoring in the AWD system and all the accessories 20% seems plausible.
For F90 M5 Comps, most folks including me factor a 12% drivetrain loss.
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      02-10-2020, 02:53 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarjejeega View Post
Underrated as expected, 501 WHP and 549 TQ!

Does anybody know what the corrected of crank HP is with the AWD drivetrain loss?

Some photos of this M850i.
What type of dyno was it? Dynojet, Dynapack, Mustang...?
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      02-10-2020, 02:54 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by limeypride View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarjejeega View Post
Underrated as expected, 501 WHP and 549 TQ!

Does anybody know what the corrected of crank HP is with the AWD drivetrain loss?

Some photos of this M850i.
What type of dyno was it? Dynojet, Dynapack, Mustang...?
Mustang dyno
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      02-10-2020, 02:56 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
What's your quarter mile time? I raced one with pretty much your mods last summer in Mexico, I was pulling and we only went to 130mph. He did a 11.6 in the 1/4
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      02-10-2020, 03:40 PM   #28
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Other than stepping on the toes of another more expensive model in the lineup (the M8 in this case), why would manufacturers under report power figures? Wouldn't it help sell/market to advertise the true higher values? Is there some Euro emissions or tax laws that benefit reporting a lower value? Badass looking car OP.
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      02-10-2020, 03:51 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarjejeega View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
What's your quarter mile time? I raced one with pretty much your mods last summer in Mexico, I was pulling and we only went to 130mph. He did a 11.6 in the 1/4
I do 12.2s but that's in Miami 80F weather, super bumper random road, and no prep at all.... I couldn't tell you my Dyno either but I assume 420-430hp wheel...
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      02-10-2020, 03:58 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
Two entirely different classes
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      02-10-2020, 04:01 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yk36 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
No offense but I'll still take the 8 just for the visuals alone.
Yeah I'll take it over a 20k car used LOL.. looks better, more grip .. Personally wouldnt be on my radar tho, probably get an m4gts or m2cs highly tuned....
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      02-10-2020, 04:58 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
I will honestly need to claim ignorance on your mods and what they deliver. That said if they turn your m235i into the equivalent of a M2C then the M850i can outperform it on the track no questions asked. Randy Pobst turned 1:39.40 at Laguna Seca in a M850i and 1:40.83 in a M2C. To that point not sure whom was behind the wheel of the M850i you raced but your driving skills may have been the difference more so than the car.
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      02-10-2020, 05:08 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarjejeega View Post
Underrated as expected, 501 WHP and 549 TQ!

Does anybody know what the corrected of crank HP is with the AWD drivetrain loss?


Attachment 2113576



Some photos of this M850i.

Attachment 2236906

Attachment 2236907

Attachment 2236908

Attachment 2236909

Attachment 2236910

Attachment 2236911

Attachment 2236912

Attachment 2236913
I like what you did to the car.

Interesting figures. Its sounds decently quick, although - at this point M8 could be better choice due to its set up.

You car looks bagged.

If I had to be pushed for a choice, like would grab the G80 M3 Comp, unless the grill is so bad it hurts my eyes. Other than that, I will wait for the 911 GTS,I hope the fix that stupid radio issue that does not allow you to play blue tooth audio right away.
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      02-10-2020, 05:25 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by modthispny View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GOLFFRR View Post
the car is a rocket no doubt! sounds awesome as well
The takeaway here is the wheel hp and torque. As mentioned above who knows what the drivetrain loss is for the x drive.

Either there is insignificant drivetrain loss for all v8 tt Bmw's meaning Bmw has nailed the stock crank hp and torque figures or they are all underrated by 75+ hp and torque.

Which is it?
One other option:
The truth...
Dyno whp is exaggerated and overrating the hp. Also, different types of dynos produce different results.
All car manufacturers are required by law to give accurate engine specifications. And so they do.

Take all dyno results with a grain of salt. (Or knock off 75hp ish... depending on humidity, air pressure, type of dyno, etc.).
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      02-10-2020, 05:37 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick3753 View Post
Other than stepping on the toes of another more expensive model in the lineup (the M8 in this case), why would manufacturers under report power figures? Wouldn't it help sell/market to advertise the true higher values? Is there some Euro emissions or tax laws that benefit reporting a lower value? Badass looking car OP.
Lower HP ratings keep insurance premiums down. American manufacturers have been doing it since the '60s.
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      02-10-2020, 09:01 PM   #36
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      02-10-2020, 09:04 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by yk36 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
No offense but I'll still take the 8 just for the visuals alone.
Yeah I'll take it over a 20k car used LOL.. looks better, more grip .. Personally wouldnt be on my radar tho, probably get an m4gts or m2cs highly tuned....
Highly doubt the m850i driver was butt hurt your m235i beat him Not really that unattainable nowadays, a person shopping for a new Camry could get one.
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      02-10-2020, 09:28 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by edwarjejeega View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jondagger View Post
I raced one the other day, I have mods below. I pulled it so not that impressive for 2 1/2 of my car's cost

Stock turbo, Meth custom tuned (no port injection) n55 m235i
What's your quarter mile time? I raced one with pretty much your mods last summer in Mexico, I was pulling and we only went to 130mph. He did a 11.6 in the 1/4
I do 12.2s but that's in Miami 80F weather, super bumper random road, and no prep at all.... I couldn't tell you my Dyno either but I assume 420-430hp wheel...
Have you ever done 60-130mph test of your car? I've got mine down to 9.79 completely stock and was a pretty hot summer night. DA was 1800+ if I recall correctly
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      02-10-2020, 09:29 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nick3753 View Post
Other than stepping on the toes of another more expensive model in the lineup (the M8 in this case), why would manufacturers under report power figures? Wouldn't it help sell/market to advertise the true higher values? Is there some Euro emissions or tax laws that benefit reporting a lower value? Badass looking car OP.
That's the thing, BMW is not "underrating" anything.

Official manufacturer power rating are highly controlled and regulated by strict standards. In the past, the testing standards required manufacturers to test in steady state (constant RPM) to obtain power ratings. The engine would be run at max load at a given RPM for a few minutes to let it stabilize, take the power reading and then set at the next RPM point. This process repeated for the entire powerband. This is the most accurate and repeatable manner to rate an engine.

An engine can make different power in transient state (while accelersting) than in steady state (at constant RPM). Turbo engines, particularly ones with modern control systems, tend to make more power in transient in the mid to high RPM while making less in the lower RPM. To allow manufacturers to take advantage of these characteristics, the testing standards have been amended to allow manufacturers to chose to test in either transient or steady state. BMW has simply chosen to keep testing using the traditional steady state method for their power ratings. Since most chassis dyno tests are done in transient state, it is normal for them to show higher values than expected from the official ratings.

Further, modern engines, particularly forced induction ones, can compensate for atmospheric conditions and dyno results should therefore not be corrected, as specified by the testing standards. Shops testing on chassis dyno often still correct the numbers for atmospheric conditions, which cam falsify the results.
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      02-10-2020, 10:05 PM   #40
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The question remains, what's the baseline #'s (same dyno) for a bone stock M8 and is the difference the same % gain as those of the M850's?
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      02-10-2020, 10:11 PM   #41
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I hope that's not your car with that ricer ass stripe on there. Utter disrespect to the car jesus
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      02-10-2020, 10:13 PM   #42
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I hope that's not your car with that ricer ass stripe on there. Utter disrespect to the car jesus
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Originally Posted by classyfast View Post
I hope that's not your car with that ricer ass stripe on there. Utter disrespect to the car jesus
I like it. It separates the matte wrap and works for a sponsored showcar. His car... why does it matter to you?
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      02-10-2020, 10:31 PM   #43
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Wheel horsepower is just crank horsepower after taxes.
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      02-10-2020, 10:44 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by nick3753 View Post
Other than stepping on the toes of another more expensive model in the lineup (the M8 in this case), why would manufacturers under report power figures? Wouldn't it help sell/market to advertise the true higher values? Is there some Euro emissions or tax laws that benefit reporting a lower value? Badass looking car OP.
That's the thing, BMW is not "underrating" anything.

Official manufacturer power rating are highly controlled and regulated by strict standards. In the past, the testing standards required manufacturers to test in steady state (constant RPM) to obtain power ratings. The engine would be run at max load at a given RPM for a few minutes to let it stabilize, take the power reading and then set at the next RPM point. This process repeated for the entire powerband. This is the most accurate and repeatable manner to rate an engine.

An engine can make different power in transient state (while accelersting) than in steady state (at constant RPM). Turbo engines, particularly ones with modern control systems, tend to make more power in transient in the mid to high RPM while making less in the lower RPM. To allow manufacturers to take advantage of these characteristics, the testing standards have been amended to allow manufacturers to chose to test in either transient or steady state. BMW has simply chosen to keep testing using the traditional steady state method for their power ratings.

Further, modern engines, particularly forced induction ones, can compensate for atmospheric conditions and dyno results should therefore not be corrected, as specified by the testing standards. Shops testing on chassis dyno often still correct the numbers for atmospheric conditions, which cam falsify the results.
Thank you for the detailed explanation.
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