[Red Bread]

I've driven the BRZ a number of times but it's just a little compromised for kid duty. A sedan would be great, even the hatch they've shown would be great. As a previous M Coupe owner, I like the ugliness.

[tjswarbrick]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Maybe BMW will rethink a 2er sedan with the success of the Audi A3/S3. And a real one, not that FWD 1er sedan China is getting.

Thought they were planning a 2-er Gran Coupe thingy. Actually, that could be my perfect car, if it ever came true.
But it looks like they've pushed it off until like 2019 now.

Probably for the best. Still out of the wife-approved price range, and I'd never be able to decide between the reasonably efficient, perfectly adequate 230 4-banger and hell-for-leather M240 proper sixer. Whichever came with a manual transmission and sport seats, for sure.

[FriskyDingo]

I wouldn't even DD a FR-S if I were single, let alone if I had kids. They are just 0 fun unless you are completely wringing them out. And even then they're too lacking in power for my tastes.

[Red Bread]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

I wouldn't even DD a FR-S if I were single, let alone if I had kids. They are just 0 fun unless you are completely wringing them out. And even then they're too lacking in power for my tastes.

I had a Miata, which was great until I put good tires on it and it would no longer go sideways in school zones. The BRZ is actually a little too neutral from the factory. The FRS/GT have a little more oversteer in factory form.

But the motor and 4,500 rpm torque dip are major let downs.

[FriskyDingo]

I looked at one when they first came out. I was all but certain it was going to be my next car. Drove it, had no interest in buying it. It's fun to toss around on a back road, that's about it. It's just begging for more power.

I drove one a few weeks ago to refresh my memory, and I'm reminded why I didn't buy one. Would rather have a Fiesta/Focus ST or GTI hands down.

[tjswarbrick]

Originally Posted by FriskyDingo

I wouldn't even DD a FR-S if I were single, let alone if I had kids. They are just 0 fun unless you are completely wringing them out. And even then they're too lacking in power for my tastes.

After 10 years in a MkIII Jetta VR6, followed by 3 in a GT-V6 Hyundai Tiburon (ugh) and 5 in a slow-poke V6 C230 (curse you 7-speed slushmaster), the BRZ felt cheap, tinny, and slow. Reasonably fun to toss, but the NB Miata felt better there, to me. But what really killed it was the harsh industrial-blender sound at (necessary) high RPM, and that torque dip. Right when the revs get into the meaty bit of the powerband and you expect something to happen, nothing does. "Did I accidentally put it into 6th? Or reverse???"
People call it "rev happy" and "peppy" - but the SR20 in my old SE-R was way more fun, smooth, and better-sounding than that. Even though it only put out some 140hp.
If they could have pulled the engine back for true 50/50 distribution and given it a (much!) updated Yamaha-head 4A-GE-type engine (now THAT was fun and zingy, loved to rev, & sounded sweet across the range) they might have had something.
Also, my then-3-year-old daughter told me I needed a bigger car after squishing her into the back of the Tibby (again.) I didn't like it, but could squeeze my 6-foot self, hunchback-like, under the hatch in that. Legs splayed sideways if I had to "sit behind myself."
Back seat of FR-S made the Hyundai feel like a limo.

Full disclosure - I didn't own the MkI MR2, but got to drive one for about 24 hours around Boulder, CO in High School. Except for running out of poop at 105mph in the thin air - that little bugger was a blast!

Scion dealership "sales" rep never came to help me, so I just tried FR-S seats and shifter. Went down to Subaru for an actual (underwhelming) BRZ drive.

Did I mention I LOVE the 1'-er?

[Red Bread]

Hated our 135i. Floaty, heavy and one wheel drive with a suspension that wanted to punish you without handling all that well. Had my E36/8 M Coupe at the time and while it was slower, it was just so much lighter, more direct and purposeful.

Of course our F30 is worse yet. But nearly all modern cars are boring, flat torque curved appliances now.

Screw it, I'll bolt the kid seat to a Caterham frame.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tjswarbrick

Thought they were planning a 2-er Gran Coupe thingy. Actually, that could be my perfect car, if it ever came true.
But it looks like they've pushed it off until like 2019 now.

The two problems with that car are:

- Like you say, it's still just rumors and fantasy. No proof it will exist, yet.
- Even if it does materialize, there's at least as good a chance it will be FWD/AWD like the A3 and CLA as there is it will be RWD(/AWD).

Probably for the best. Still out of the wife-approved price range, and I'd never be able to decide between the reasonably efficient, perfectly adequate 230 4-banger and hell-for-leather M240 proper sixer. Whichever came with a manual transmission and sport seats, for sure.

I say forget those. You go M or you go home. You only get one chance at this!

[tommyb13662]

Eh people keep mentioning the ATS-v... tried one yesterday at the philly auto show... nice interior... crappy slushbox. Had the guy from caddy bragging about the trans winning awards... so i thought ooo lets see it. Sat in it shifts 1-4 defined not too bad touch sloppy compared to my 6MT. Then 5th gear yuk you cant find it even after 6th moving strait up from it. The gate for 5th was lost between reverse and 3rd(reverse is right and up) and when you are 140+ (my car 4th gear) i dont want to worry about finding 5th gear!!!

[GottWhat]

The manual transmission found in the ATS-V (Tremec TR-6060) is based on the Borg-Warner T-56 (used in cars such as the Aston Martin Vanquish, Corvette, Camaro, Viper, prior CTS-V, Mustang Cobra, etc).

The TR-6060 is used in the Corvette, Challenger, CTS-V, Shelby GT500, Viper, etc.

[Vigilante375]

Originally Posted by tommyb13662

Eh people keep mentioning the ATS-v... tried one yesterday at the philly auto show... nice interior... crappy slushbox. Had the guy from caddy bragging about the trans winning awards... so i thought ooo lets see it. Sat in it shifts 1-4 defined not too bad touch sloppy compared to my 6MT. Then 5th gear yuk you cant find it even after 6th moving strait up from it. The gate for 5th was lost between reverse and 3rd(reverse is right and up) and when you are 140+ (my car 4th gear) i dont want to worry about finding 5th gear!!!

Like all manufacturers, they have a mechanism that locks out reverse when you get past a certain speed. I never put my car in reverse in my 06 GTO while shifting to 5th from another gear, at any working speed for 5th. I never had issues finding 5th and neither will anyone else. Neither has anyone else.

Sitting in a car and moving the gears around is different than driving a car and actually moving the gears as intended. Go test drive a something like a Camaro SS or SS sedan with the manual and just try to put it in 5th while you're cruising along at highway speeds. It will not work.

[GottWhat]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Like all manufacturers, they have a mechanism that locks out reverse when you get past a certain speed. I never put my car in reverse in my 06 GTO while shifting to 5th from another gear, at any working speed for 5th. I never had issues finding 5th and neither will anyone else. Neither has anyone else.

Sitting in a car and moving the gears around is different than driving a car and actually moving the gears as intended. Go test drive a something like a Camaro SS or SS sedan with the manual and just try to put it in 5th while you're cruising along at highway speeds. It will not work.

I agree (I had a 2005 GTO 6-speed). Lots of cars have the same pattern and same or similar transmission. No issues.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by tommyb13662

Eh people keep mentioning the ATS-v... tried one yesterday at the philly auto show... nice interior... crappy slushbox.

Not to mention, its a luxury sedan. The entire point here is to avoid the "luxury badge tax" if you are willing to concede on some features like fancy interior materials and other non-essentials. You can get a Mustang GT or Camaro SS with performance similar to an M4, C63 coupe, or ATS-V coupe for about 25% to 50% less money than those luxury coupes. But if you want a low-priced sedan with performance comparable to an M3, C63 sedan, ATS-V sedan, or Giulia, you have exactly zero choices.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Vigilante375

Like all manufacturers, they have a mechanism that locks out reverse when you get past a certain speed. I never put my car in reverse in my 06 GTO while shifting to 5th from another gear, at any working speed for 5th. I never had issues finding 5th and neither will anyone else. Neither has anyone else.

Sitting in a car and moving the gears around is different than driving a car and actually moving the gears as intended. Go test drive a something like a Camaro SS or SS sedan with the manual and just try to put it in 5th while you're cruising along at highway speeds. It will not work.

heh, in my Camaro SS I would skip around the gearbox all day long, rarely did I shift sequentially, there was just no reason to with that much torque. I do seem to recall there was a certain way to grip the gear shifter when going from 4th to 5th, using the outside of your palm, pushing up and out, and not worrying about reverse, then to get to 6th it was a quick flash downward, again, if for some reason you had shifted to 5th first. I used gears like 5th more for slow speeds to keep the RPM around 1000-1500 when 6th was a little too high. You could eek out some decent economy like that, and of course skip down 2 or 3 gears to accelerate like a bat out of hell if needed.

[STR8-6IX]

Originally Posted by jpnh

GM has been making RWD vehicles for like 70+ years

Its not like they dont have lots of options.......including the existing corvette that they could transplant into most anything they wanted

Lets not pretend that this is a difficult thing to do or that GM has to create anything from scratch here

GM is garbage. I wouldnt buy a car like this, or any car for that matter from GM ever

[GottWhat]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

heh, in my Camaro SS I would skip around the gearbox all day long, rarely did I shift sequentially, there was just no reason to with that much torque. I do seem to recall there was a certain way to grip the gear shifter when going from 4th to 5th, using the outside of your palm, pushing up and out, and not worrying about reverse, then to get to 6th it was a quick flash downward, again, if for some reason you had shifted to 5th first. I used gears like 5th more for slow speeds to keep the RPM around 1000-1500 when 6th was a little too high. You could eek out some decent economy like that, and of course skip down 2 or 3 gears to accelerate like a bat out of hell if needed.

In my GTO, I would typically shift from 1st to 3rd to 5th while cruising around.

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

GM is garbage. I wouldnt buy a car like this, or any car for that matter from GM ever

An ATS is likely more reliable than a modern BMW. Certainly less costly to own than my 335i. Also, most BMW owners (excluding the real enthusiasts) simply buy a BMW because of the badge.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by 6IX-F10-N52

GM is garbage. I wouldnt buy a car like this, or any car for that matter from GM ever

Your loss. I had a C5 Camaro SS. The car they put the battery in the trunk, had the low pushrod V8 behind the front wheels, the nearly 50/50 weight distribution at about 3850lbs for the manual I had. With the eibach anti-sways, the strut bar and the hidden hitch I'm pretty sure that served as a rear chassis stiffener, it handled like a dream, and that low end torque for days was amazing, it would be totally happy to just buzz along at 1000rpm. Massive brembo brake calipers. It was a really well balanced chassis that handled extremely well and the new generation improves on every aspect of it.

I think there's a lot of bias against them. I see people making comments about the interiors that often make no sense at all. It's like they turn a blind eye to the massive amounts of plastic in their own BMW's interior, expecting these thigns to be CNCed out of a solid block of aluminum and inlaid with diamonds on goat leather. In fact, much of the ergonomics and interior features are the same. Buttons for controlling radio/cruise control in about the same spot, I liked the bigger digital speedo for setting speeds, seats were very comfortable. I see people raving up and down about how the BMW sport seats are all that. Seriously? They aren't horrible, but they are barely passable for a "sport sedan" IMO, nothing to write home about. Seat heat worked almost exactly the same with both. Most people told me they thought it was like sitting in a fighter jet, but I was just used to it.

Back around 2005, GM started waking up, slowly introducing cars like the G8, CTS-V, C6 Corvette and it's Z06/ZR1 models, ATS-V, new CTS-V, Camaro SS/1LE/ZL1/Z28 and so on, cars that not only went in a straight line, but that out-handled the competition. Something that had never happened before. I think a lot of people are still store to know that GM figured out how to build chassis and tune handling to beat their euro or japanese cars. It's a great time to be shopping with so many good choices out there. I don't hate the BMWs, but as time goes on they are removing themselves more and more from the more pure performance and handling standards IMO.

[smrtypants44]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Not to mention, its a luxury sedan. The entire point here is to avoid the "luxury badge tax" if you are willing to concede on some features like fancy interior materials and other non-essentials. You can get a Mustang GT or Camaro SS with performance similar to an M4, C63 coupe, or ATS-V coupe for about 25% to 50% less money than those luxury coupes. But if you want a low-priced sedan with performance comparable to an M3, C63 sedan, ATS-V sedan, or Giulia, you have exactly zero choices.

Don't the Camaro ss and mustang gt compete with the 440i, not the m4/etc?

[BEM-S4]

Didn't read the whole thread but did anyone mention the Kia Stinger yet? Think you can get the big engine in RWD but not 100% sure.

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by smrtypants44

Don't the Camaro ss and mustang gt compete with the 440i, not the m4/etc?

Comparison reviews show that they aren't that far off an M4 performance-wise. Probably a drivers race in general, though certain situations may favor the M4 and certain situations may favor the Mustang or Camaro.

The other thing is you can step up to a ZL-1 or GT350 (or soon, a Z28 or GT500) for even more (bordering on insane for the ZL-1 and GT500) levels of factory power and still be at or below the MSRP of the M4 (especially once you add ZCP to the M4).

[mkoesel]

Originally Posted by BEM-S4

Didn't read the whole thread but did anyone mention the Kia Stinger yet? Think you can get the big engine in RWD but not 100% sure.

Yeah, that one arrived after I started this thread.

The thing is, as I mentioned in the discussion from when it debuted, the car is big (over 190") and also underpowered (under 400hp). It's going to be a nice sport sedan in the same way that the Chevy SS was. Great effort, sure, but not a car for the M/AMG/RS crowd. Now, if they later decide to put in a V8 for an "N" model, particularly a V8 with forced induction, maybe things get more interesting.

[BEM-S4]

Originally Posted by mkoesel

Yeah, that one arrived after I started this thread.

The thing is, as I mentioned in the discussion from when it debuted, the car is big (over 190") and also underpowered (under 400hp). It's going to be a nice sport sedan in the same way that the Chevy SS was. Great effort, sure, but not a car for the M/AMG/RS crowd. Now, if they later decide to put in a V8 for an "N" model, particularly a V8 with forced induction, maybe things get more interesting.

All fair points - from what little I've read didn't think it would win many battles vs the M/AMG/RS stuff. That said seems like a very compelling option from a performance / value perspective if you don't want to drop serious coin. Who knows, could be garbage when it actually gets here. Will need to drive and see.