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2019+ BMW 3 AND 4-SERIES FORUMS (G2x Generation) General G20 Sedan / G22 Coupe / G26 Gran Coupe Discussions BMW tries to revive lagging 3 Series sales with new 2019 design that's more BMW-like

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      12-15-2018, 08:57 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by IanMan View Post
I can't believe that I would have ever, ever say this, but Kia is actually beating BMW at their own game right now and it's disappointing to me as a longtime fan.
That’s true. I hear annual Stinger sales in Europe are deep into three figures
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      12-15-2018, 10:03 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by tdott View Post
Times have changed. Back then the auto sucked and the manual was supisrior.

Now that is no longer true and other than "engagement" or "feel" which some don't care about, now the market has spoken, manual sales are down. Hell I don't want a manual f30 and certainly won't be buying manual g20 new. So I really don't care what BMW does, they simply no longer make cars I want. I will continue to own manuals but I won't go around crying about it when a manufacture decides it is no longer feasible for them to keep making it. There are plenty of great cars already in existence to satisfy my needs for a manual.
Nah, you don't really understand the capability of control a manual transmission provides the driver, so I understand your point of view, but you lack to understand mine. For vehicle control by the driver, the manual transmission is still superior. Crying I'm not. I just suggest that BMW should provide the option of a manual transmission outside of an M car. If it was true to its heritage it would do so. We are not yet at a time of driving automation that a manually operated transmission is defunct. We are decades away from that.
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      12-15-2018, 10:05 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ScottAndrew View Post
You should have slammed it into a tree then, put it out of its misery.

Do you you think BMW NA specially ordered a batch of deliberately detuned 328s, just for you?
No, they made them for Roundelhounds.
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      12-15-2018, 10:07 PM   #26
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The Roundelhound can then slam it into a tree; even with all the nannies activated. Hopefully removing himself from the gene pool, thus increasing the BMW enthusiast-to-Roundelhound ratio by one (1). The more that happens, then maybe BMW will get back to building cars for normal car enthusiasts...
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      12-15-2018, 11:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ScottAndrew View Post
That’s true. I hear annual Stinger sales in Europe are deep into three figures
And BMW isn’t the subject of a NTHSA Investigation for their cars catching on fire or a recall called for by The Center for Auto Safety.

So I guess BMW isn’t as “hot” as the Hyundai and Kia in that regard.
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      12-15-2018, 11:30 PM   #28
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the brand is getting boring and numb.
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      12-16-2018, 06:32 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
And BMW isn’t the subject of a NTHSA Investigation for their cars catching on fire or a recall called for by The Center for Auto Safety.

So I guess BMW isn’t as “hot” as the Hyundai and Kia in that regard.
Yeah, Kia has BMW beat by 1.3 million vehicles

And it only took BMW about three years to get my airbag sorted out for the driver's side and about 2.5 years for the passenger side seat sensor.
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      12-16-2018, 06:57 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Nah, you don't really understand the capability of control a manual transmission provides the driver, so I understand your point of view, but you lack to understand mine. For vehicle control by the driver, the manual transmission is still superior.
What you don't seem to really grasp is that you're not the only magical person in this whole world who has driven or drives a manual transmission car. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he can't understand your point of view.

Everyone's more than welcome to have their preference, and I think most would agree when it comes to engagement, the manual is the way to go ultimately, however picking out a single feature-point as an argument against the other option being objectively superior overall, doesn't exactly help you to make your point.

By this logic "a run-down waiting to be scrapeed 316i is the best BMW because it's superior in having the lowest price. Never mind all the other factors."

Now based on your posts in this thread, I'm guessing you'll disregard my opinion completely as well, as I haven't shown any evidence I'd be driving a true manual transmission M BMW, which among other things in your opinion makes me automatically a "roundelhound" I guess.
Very purist of you, sir.
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      12-16-2018, 07:05 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by KTN View Post
What you don't seem to really grasp is that you're not the only magical person in this whole world who has driven or drives a manual transmission car. Just because he doesn't agree with you doesn't mean he can't understand your point of view.

Everyone's more than welcome to have their preference, and I think most would agree when it comes to engagement, the manual is the way to go ultimately, however picking out a single feature-point as an argument against the other option being objectively superior overall, doesn't exactly help you to make your point.

By this logic "a run-down waiting to be scrapeed 316i is the best BMW because it's superior in having the lowest price. Never mind all the other factors."

Now based on your posts in this thread, I'm guessing you'll disregard my opinion completely as well, as I haven't shown any evidence I'd be driving a true manual transmission M BMW, which among other things in your opinion makes me automatically a "roundelhound" I guess.
Very purist of you, sir.
"Engagement" is not the point I am making. Thanks for participating.
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      12-16-2018, 07:16 AM   #32
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Now based on your posts in this thread, I'm guessing you'll disregard my opinion completely as well, as I haven't shown any evidence I'd be driving a true manual transmission M BMW, which among other things in your opinion makes me automatically a "roundelhound" I guess.

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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
"Engagement" is not the point I am making. Thanks for participating.
Why no, thank you for proving my point even further by focusing on a single word.

I won't even bother discussing further how you yourself missed the point I was making, because I'm not one bit surprised, and at this point I can clearly see it isn't worth the effort.
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      12-16-2018, 07:32 AM   #33
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All I can add is that when I started looking at a Tesla Model 3, that it is an awkward looking car with an awful choice of colors and a cheap feeling interior. At least the BMW G-20 is none of those.
I drive over 30,000 miles a year just to work, so I'd love to have an electric if it (a) would be less expensive to own from a total-ownership cost (lifecycle cost), and (b) provide for less maintenance. The Model 3 at $51K, which is about the lowest price you can get one at the moment, for my transportation cost profile, doesn't pay itself back until 270,000 miles compared to if I were to buy a decent 30-MPG $26,000 4-door ICE sedan (market forces what they are, 3 weeks ago I could have bought a new ATS at a heavily discounted price of $26K) . Outside of that, I just don't think the 3 is that good of a car at this point in it's development. I think it rides very harshly and the backseat is just atrocious comfort-wise. I've spent some time in a colleague's Model 3 Performance as a passenger and I just find the overall package disappointing. It's an impressive car for sure, and kudos to Tesla for standing up a car company and producing the first 300-mile range EV sedan priced under $100,000. If Tesla ever gets around to building the $35,000 version, which it now has to do without the $7,500 tax credit, I fear to see how much less content it will have from the current $50K version.
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      12-16-2018, 08:06 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by KTN View Post
Why no, thank you for proving my point even further by focusing on a single word.

I won't even bother discussing further how you yourself missed the point I was making, because I'm not one bit surprised, and at this point I can clearly see it isn't worth the effort.
We can keep going... I didn't miss your point; "....you're not the only magical person in this whole world who has driven or drives a manual transmission car." I what does that even mean, other than a poor attempt at an insult? That point I may have missed because there is no point made relative to the discussion regarding manual vs. automatic transmissions.

For some reason you decided to get in on a discussion I had with another Poster. He missed my point about driver control, which is not the same as engagement, which is a word as well as description of action; I am focusing on the action. I prefer a manual transmission because it gives greater control over the act of driving the vehicle, which is why I disagree that modern automatics are superior to a manual transmission. If you want to call it purist, then that's fine. A manumatic, paddle-shifted automatic transmission offers as much "engagement" with the vehicle as a manual transmission, yet it doesn't provide the same level of control. Yup, I get it, a manumatic provides convenience of not having to use one's left leg as part of the act driving when in heavy traffic, and provides some similitude of manually shifting the transmission's gears; however, it is not an exact replacement. From my point of view, I don't find manually shifting the transmission with a foot-operated clutch as inconvenient, even in heavy traffic.

I've merely just suggested BMW should offer a manual transmission in the G20. From what I've read the M version of the new 3-series may offer a manual transmission, which is a trend I don't appreciate that if one wants a manual transmission, he has to buy an over-powered and over-priced ego-inflating halo (badge) car. In the USA, BMW charges a premium for its products, which is why it is considered a premium brand here. I would expect BMW, being a premium brand selling its vehicles at a premium price, to be able to afford to offer a range of drivetrains in its most popular sports sedan that includes a manual transmission option. But rather, BMW is behaving like Ford, which now doesn't even offer a manual transmission in its two smallest econo-sedans other than at the lowest trim level.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-16-2018 at 08:20 AM..
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      12-16-2018, 08:22 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The Roundelhound can then slam it into a tree; even with all the nannies activated. Hopefully removing himself from the gene pool, thus increasing the BMW enthusiast-to-Roundelhound ratio by one (1). The more that happens, then maybe BMW will get back to building cars for normal car enthusiasts...
Or rich Americans demanding luxury and power basically, for whom a "320d" or "320i" is some kind of reds-under-the-bed Kremlin-backed subversion. I can't think of a brand for which there is such a wide gulf in market positioning and demand as BMW. The evidence supporting creation of a sub-brand is certainly overwhelming.
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      12-16-2018, 08:25 AM   #36
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Yeah, Kia has BMW beat by 1.3 million vehicles
Good job picking stats that fleetingly support your argument before evaporating . It's actually 5m more cars that Kia sells. But most of them are tiny things sold to what Americans consider less-developed countries, and are not things they would ever buy.

If market volume is the predeterminant measure of quality, what does that say about Porsche? Or Alfa? <s******>
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      12-16-2018, 08:36 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
We can keep going... I didn't miss your point; "....you're not the only magical person in this whole world who has driven or drives a manual transmission car." I what does that even mean, other than a poor attempt at an insult? That point I may have missed because there is no point made relative to the discussion regarding manual vs. automatic transmissions.

For some reason you decided to get in on a discussion I had with another Poster. He missed my point about driver control, which is not the same as engagement, which is a word as well as description of action; I am focusing on the action. I prefer a manual transmission because it gives greater control over the act of driving the vehicle, which is why I disagree that modern automatics are superior to a manual transmission. If you want to call it purist, then that's fine. A manumatic, paddle-shifted automatic transmission offers as much "engagement" with the vehicle as a manual transmission, yet it doesn't provide the same level of control. Yup, I get it, a manumatic provides convenience of not having to use one's left leg as part of the act driving when in heavy traffic, and provides some similitude of manually shifting the transmission's gears; however, it is not an exact replacement. From my point of view, I don't find manually shifting the transmission with a foot-operated clutch as inconvenient, even in heavy traffic.

I've merely just suggested BMW should offer a manual transmission in the G20. From what I've read the M version of the new 3-series may offer a manual transmission, which is a trend I don't appreciate that if one wants a manual transmission, he has to buy an over-powered and over-priced ego-inflating halo (badged) car. In the USA, BMW charges a premium for its products, which is why it is considered a premium brand here. I would expect BMW, being a premium brand selling its vehicles at a premium price, to be able to afford to offer a range of drivetrains in its most popular sports sedan that includes a manual transmission option. But rather, BMW is behaving like Ford, which now doesn't even offer a manual transmission in its two smallest econo-sedans other than at the lowest trim level.

Not any more meant as an insult, as you basically calling everyone driving something other than a manual M car a "roundelhound", or trying to say the other poster just doesn't have an understanding what a manual transmission provides, unlike you.

The way you were putting things just came off wrong in my book, but let's disregard that, I guess it could just be your style, I don't know you, and since we're on a forum I don't have the context of how it would actually come off if you've said it out loud.

On the driving control aspect, I'd think if precise control would only be possible with manual transmissions, professional motorsport racing would be using manuals exclusively. I'm mainly talking about the comercially available autos that offer manual control over shifting in one way or another here, and I also get racing drivers don't just let the auto shift for them, but give their "manual inputs" into the process.

I've only owned manual cars so far, so I get what you say you prefer about them. I'm just saying objectively looking at things nowadays, automatics are faster at shifts, better at fuel economy, and can be more comfortable if that tickles your fancy. That's performance, economy and practicality, at least one of which is somewhat of a factor for everyone on the market.

And again, if what you value most and what you look for in your car is the control and engagement (please don't pick on this poor word again) that you feel only a manual is able to provide, that's perfectly well and understandable.

In this regard, and to you, a manual will be superior "till the end of times". But that doesn't make them objectively outright the suprerior choice overall. And so it also doesn't mean anyone who drives an automatic couldn't be just as much an enthusiast as you, or that a 3-series with an automatic transmission "is not a proper 3-series", or BMW in general.

I'm also with you on having the option to opt for the manual. Like it's been discussed in countless threads during countless discussions, it seems like the direction the market's going (customer uptake of manuals), it may not make it financially feasible or profitable to offer it on all models anymore, unfortunately. And unfortunately indeed, because either you want an auto or a manual, I think all can agree having the option to configure the car the way you want it is what everybody wants in the end.

Last edited by KTN; 12-16-2018 at 08:55 AM..
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      12-16-2018, 08:39 AM   #38
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Or rich Americans demanding luxury and power basically, for whom a "320d" or "320i" is some kind of reds-under-the-bed Kremlin-backed subversion. I can't think of a brand for which there is such a wide gulf in market positioning and demand as BMW. The evidence supporting creation of a sub-brand is certainly overwhelming.
Hummm... the E21 was only available in the USA with the M10 4-cylinder, while Europe it was offered with the M20. The E30 was originally offered with the M10, until the eta M20 was offered as the first US-Market 3-series with a BMW straight-six. The E30 didn't get much respect with both under-powered engines. When the E30 was finally offered with the M20B25 starting in 1987 was it a respectable car in the US. BMW sold the 1st and 2nd generation 7-series in the USA with a manual transmission option.

I'd argue the Mini is BMW's US sub-brand. In the USA, the Ford, Chevy, and RAM pickup trucks have a far more diverse market position and demand than BMW could ever dream of.
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      12-16-2018, 08:49 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by KTN View Post
Not any more meant as an insult, as you basically calling everyone driving something other than a manual M car a "roundelhound", or trying to say the other poster just doesn't have an understanding what a manual transmission provides, unlike you.

The way you were putting things just came off wrong in my book, but let's disregard that, I guess it could just be your style, I don't know you, and since we're on a forum I don't have the context of how it would actually come off if you've said it out loud.

On the driving control aspect, I'd think if precise control would only be possible with manual transmissions, professional motorsport racing would be using manuals exclusively.

I've only owned manual cars so far, so I get what you say you prefer about them. I'm just saying objectively looking at things nowadays, automatics are faster at shifts, better at fuel economy, and can be more comfortable if that tickles your fancy.

And again, if what you value most and what you look for in your car is the control and engagement (please don't pick on this poor word again) that you feel only a manual is able to provide, that's perfectly well and understandable.

In this regard, and to you, a manual will be superior "till the end of times". But that doesn't make them objectively outright the suprerior choice overall. And so it also doesn't mean anyone who drives an automatic couldn't be just as much an enthusiast as you, or that a 3-series with an automatic transmission "is not a proper 3-series", or BMW in general.
I define a Roundelhead as a person who buys a BMW only for the status of the badge on the hood and has no idea of the heritage that goes with it; not that they drive an automatic. And yes, to me, if the 3-series does not include a manual transmission as an available option, then to me it is not a proper 3-series. For example, about 35 years ago Ford was going to introduce a new Mustang. It was a front-wheel drive euro-styled coupe offered only with a 4 cylinder. The Mustang purists raised holy hell and Ford ended up releasing the new car as the Probe. Better, Ford kept the rear-drive V8 powered Mustang alive based on the total uproar the prospective new Mustang-Probe wrought. A great example of a car company listening to its customer base.
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      12-16-2018, 09:31 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by 10" View Post
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Originally Posted by aftercompletion View Post
Right now, the cheapest new porsche at my local dealership is 4 banger automatic Macan.

It's $55k.

Your comparison sucks.
eh...i'm talking about their sports cars. i don't care about SUVs.
Congratulations.

You just made his point stronger.

That's like saying the cheapest Bentley isn't luxurious.
Huh? Worst analysis of a discussion ever..
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      12-16-2018, 10:04 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I've merely just suggested BMW should offer a manual transmission in the G20. From what I've read the M version of the new 3-series may offer a manual transmission, which is a trend I don't appreciate that if one wants a manual transmission, he has to buy an over-powered and over-priced ego-inflating halo (badge) car. In the USA, BMW charges a premium for its products, which is why it is considered a premium brand here. I would expect BMW, being a premium brand selling its vehicles at a premium price, to be able to afford to offer a range of drivetrains in its most popular sports sedan that includes a manual transmission option. But rather, BMW is behaving like Ford, which now doesn't even offer a manual transmission in its two smallest econo-sedans other than at the lowest trim level.
I emphasis again that limiting MT across the range is part of getting BMW's fleet CO2 averages within target levels.

Even the MT gearbox makers like Getrag are having to semi automate MT to be competitive with AT on emission saving features. They have no option, as many of the features are so critical to reducing CO2 numbers.

I can't see BMW wanting developments like advanced MT 'AHT' (Automated Hybrid Transmission) and AT in the same line up. Why bother if MT is no longer the simple user controlled transmission. It won't satisfy the purists, who want total control, having sailing mode and functions like traffic jam assist taking priority over user control. MT, (as we know it), just doesn't fit the model for current and future emission limits.

The fact MT sales are falling anyway, helps the business model all the manufacturers have to follow.

Don't under estimate how emissions are dominating available models. We are seeing reduced model ranges in Europe, simply due to the new WLTP test regime.
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      12-16-2018, 10:20 AM   #42
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I emphasis again that limiting MT across the range is part of getting BMW's fleet CO2 averages within target levels.

Even the MT gearbox makers like Getrag are having to semi automate MT to be competitive with AT on emission saving features. They have no option, as many of the features are so critical to reducing CO2 numbers.

I can't see BMW wanting developments like advanced MT 'AHT' (Automated Hybrid Transmission) and AT in the same line up. Why bother if MT is no longer the simple user controlled transmission. It won't satisfy the purists, who want total control, having sailing mode and functions like traffic jam assist taking priority over user control. MT, (as we know it), just doesn't fit the model for current and future emission limits.

The fact MT sales are falling anyway, helps the business model all the manufacturers have to follow.

Don't under estimate how emissions are dominating available models. We are seeing reduced model ranges in Europe, simply due to the new WLTP test regime.
So wait, the F30 difference in MPG is 2 MPG and 10 grams of CO2 per mile between the auto and manual. 95% (maybe more) are automatics, total CO2 output difference is not even measurable in real-world driving. So is it the market driving the change or planet-saving politicians?

Less than 8 years ago BMW was paying the highest fines in the industry for not meeting US CAFE targets. They just passed the cost onto the customer, and the customer was willing to pay it.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-16-2018 at 10:30 AM..
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      12-16-2018, 10:26 AM   #43
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Good job picking stats that fleetingly support your argument before evaporating . It's actually 5m more cars that Kia sells. But most of them are tiny things sold to what Americans consider less-developed countries, and are not things they would ever buy.

If market volume is the predeterminant measure of quality, what does that say about Porsche? Or Alfa? <s******>
I checked the recalls due to fires just for the E90X vs. the Center for Auto Safety's want of the Kia, which states there are 2.9M Kia that should be recalled. The E9X has two fire-related recalls affecting 1.6M vehicles. It was a joke man, relax. The point is the E9X has had 10 total separate recall campaigns over it's lifecycle... quality.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      12-16-2018, 10:48 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by KTN View Post
Why no, thank you for proving my point even further by focusing on a single word.

I won't even bother discussing further how you yourself missed the point I was making, because I'm not one bit surprised, and at this point I can clearly see it isn't worth the effort.
We can keep going... I didn't miss your point; "....you're not the only magical person in this whole world who has driven or drives a manual transmission car." I what does that even mean, other than a poor attempt at an insult? That point I may have missed because there is no point made relative to the discussion regarding manual vs. automatic transmissions.

For some reason you decided to get in on a discussion I had with another Poster. He missed my point about driver control, which is not the same as engagement, which is a word as well as description of action; I am focusing on the action. I prefer a manual transmission because it gives greater control over the act of driving the vehicle, which is why I disagree that modern automatics are superior to a manual transmission. If you want to call it purist, then that's fine. A manumatic, paddle-shifted automatic transmission offers as much "engagement" with the vehicle as a manual transmission, yet it doesn't provide the same level of control. Yup, I get it, a manumatic provides convenience of not having to use one's left leg as part of the act driving when in heavy traffic, and provides some similitude of manually shifting the transmission's gears; however, it is not an exact replacement. From my point of view, I don't find manually shifting the transmission with a foot-operated clutch as inconvenient, even in heavy traffic.

I've merely just suggested BMW should offer a manual transmission in the G20. From what I've read the M version of the new 3-series may offer a manual transmission, which is a trend I don't appreciate that if one wants a manual transmission, he has to buy an over-powered and over-priced ego-inflating halo (badge) car. In the USA, BMW charges a premium for its products, which is why it is considered a premium brand here. I would expect BMW, being a premium brand selling its vehicles at a premium price, to be able to afford to offer a range of drivetrains in its most popular sports sedan that includes a manual transmission option. But rather, BMW is behaving like Ford, which now doesn't even offer a manual transmission in its two smallest econo-sedans other than at the lowest trim level.
Using your logic, the Wright Brother's Plane is better than any modern day Boeing Jet, not to mention Henry Ford's Model T when it comes to Automobiles.

Every vehicle (or aircraft) since the original is worse according to your logic.
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