[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

^^ Good point, we only hear of well off folk who can afford the luxury of an EV with a gas car to back it up if things get too much with the EV.

Not much better in Canada. The average income in 2023 is roughly $64850. Average Canadian aren't even afford a pleasurable car to start with Now ppl are saying it will be fine with EV when you can afford 2 or more cars or you are living in a house with the fancy charger. What a joke!!!!

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Nissan Leaf Heads for the Off-Ramp
The Leaf was a pioneering EV when it first arrived more than a decade ago, but it has never been a big seller and is not long for this world.
Although the Leaf has been part of Nissan's U.S. lineup for a dozen years now, fewer than 175,000 units have been sold.
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a4...ng-phased-out/

For that OP, please don't tell me you are comparing the cost of operate a BMW with a leaf. Just like a while ago, one OP ask the groups, can he put in cheap gas (octane 87) into his G80 to save a few dollars each fill up. The answer is easy: Sell your car.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

I have no idea how the UK is going 100% EV. The grid, no parking, no garages, it's nuts.

Oh, almost forgot, and the little old ladies that feel compelled to lecture you about the environment.

Tom and Jerry are running the show in the house by the river believing nutcases in white coats.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Not much better in Canada. The average income in 2023 is roughly $64850. Average Canadian aren't even afford a pleasurable car to start with Now ppl are saying it will be fine with EV when you can afford 2 or more cars or you are living in a house with the fancy charger. What a joke!!!!

Cost of living, increased mortgage repayments, rocketing power bills for the working class don't figure in their agenda.

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Cost of living, increased mortgage repayments, rocketing power bills for the working class don't figure in their agenda.

The EV owners in here shared the same disorder with our government called the selective hearing and selective seeing.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by M5Rick

Cost of living, increased mortgage repayments, rocketing power bills for the working class don't figure in their agenda.

Hey! We're trying to save the planet here! The cost? "How DARE you!

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hey! We're trying to save the planet here! The cost? "How DARE you!

If I ever saw that gal in the street I'd give her one of my own speeches

[eugenebmw]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Hey! We're trying to save the planet here! The cost? "How DARE you!

Sorry for talking about shit here Those new green toliets suppose to save our planet too by using less water to complete the flush. You know what, I have to flush it twice almost every time I use. Am I the odd one to flush it twice? I don't think so. Are they really saving our planet??

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Those new green toliets suppose to save our planet too by using less water to complete the flush. You know what, I have to flush it twice almost every time I use.

I'm going to pass on the low hanging fruit on this one.

Since I've been so negative on EV's I fell compelled to say that we need to respect our resources. Conservation of resources has been a life long passion of mine but the last thing EV's do is conserve resources. They are environmental disasters promoted by a clueless cult along with the idiots claiming zero carbon is possible and that the efforts to obtain that will save the planet. Most of these folks are reading impaired, most likely by choice.
That said we have made fantastic advancements in transportation, housing, power generation, recycling and many other areas. We need to concentrate our efforts on future technologies that will continue these advancements. 1000 hp EVs are fine but don't kid yourself that you are making a difference.

[Car-Addicted]

Nothing to see here, move along
EV Fire Protection Materials, Protecting a US$3.5 Trillion Market: IDTechEx Predictions
Feb 21 2024
It is also unclear what the impact of aging vehicles on the risk of thermal runaway will be. Effective thermal management, quality control, and battery management systems minimize the risk of thermal runaway occurring, but fire protection materials are the primary method of either preventing the propagation of thermal runaway or delaying its progression long enough to meet regulations and provide safety for occupants.



Many manufacturers are also moving towards a cell-to-pack design where module housings (and a host of other materials) are removed, leading to improved energy density but potentially more challenging thermal runaway propagation prevention. These design choices all greatly impact the choice and deployment of fire protection materials.

The EV market continues its strong growth, and with more vehicles on the road, it is becoming more critical than ever to provide effective protection from thermal runaway. Regulations are continuing to develop, putting a greater focus on battery safety, leading to greater opportunities for material suppliers.
https://www.azocleantech.com/news.aspx?newsID=34629

Most EV's use cells like conventional batteries but this report states that many companies are moving to soft pouches "Prismatic Cells" for increased energy density and better heat dissipation and lower weight. These cells will depend on the container they are installed in for puncture resistance. This make the cells much more vulnerable to damage and thus thermal runaway.

[Car-Addicted]

Mercedes-Benz EV demand slows down
February 22, 2024
Mercedes-Benz on Thursday (February 22) toned down expectations on electric vehicle demand and said it will update its combustion engine lineup well into next decade, becoming the latest carmaker to flag a slower than expected appetite for battery-powered cars.

https://www.reuters.com/

[ibimmer954]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

DOE didn't use your fantasy math. They used real world USA average utility efficiency and average transmission loss to the home and then loss from home entry to the EV. The EPA pretends that energy generated for EV use is at 100% efficiency and transmitted to your EV at 100% efficiency. The result is fantasy eMPG numbers. And if you think your kw rate will stay low, LOL, you have no idea what is headed your way. Look at CA and the EU to get a clue.

His argument has nothing to do with whatever your definition of "efficiency" is. I don't really care what the "efficiency" is to transmit power to my house and then eventually to my i4. It's not relevant.

I care about operating cost: how much does it cost for me to commute to work and back. And he's right. The actual real-world operating cost when charging at home is significantly less than gas. I live in San Diego which now has the third-highest expensive rates of electricity in the U.S. And guess what, even at that cost, the actual cents per mile cost to move my electric vehicle is still about 5x less than my gasoline vehicles. It costs about $0.25 per mile in fuel costs to drive my X4. At worst case it costs $0.05 per miles to drive my i4. And that's if I pay for all of the electricity, which I don't because I have solar which offsets my energy costs. So my actual cost ratio is at least 5x and probably higher but it gets complicated to compute with solar.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Mercedes-Benz EV demand slows down
February 22, 2024
Mercedes-Benz on Thursday (February 22) toned down expectations on electric vehicle demand and said it will update its combustion engine lineup well into next decade, becoming the latest carmaker to flag a slower than expected appetite for battery-powered cars.

https://www.reuters.com/

I think the headline from Mercedes Thursday announcement was they officially delayed their electrification goal by 5 years.

EV losses in the billions are not sustainable.

[gilberjj]

Originally Posted by Weather Man

Your joking! The fantasy eMPG is how the Green Insanity is ramming the ICE bans through!!!!

There is no free lunch! Electricity rates will continue to skyrocket to pay for the insane amount of power that will be needed. It gets even better when they force utilities to spackle unreliable wind and solar on top of required baseload. One way or the other, you will pay.

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by Car-Addicted

Nothing to see here, move along
EV Fire Protection Materials, Protecting a US$3.5 Trillion Market: IDTechEx Predictions
Feb 21 2024
It is also unclear what the impact of aging vehicles on the risk of thermal runaway will be. Effective thermal management, quality control, and battery management systems minimize the risk of thermal runaway occurring, but fire protection materials are the primary method of either preventing the propagation of thermal runaway or delaying its progression long enough to meet regulations and provide safety for occupants.



Many manufacturers are also moving towards a cell-to-pack design where module housings (and a host of other materials) are removed, leading to improved energy density but potentially more challenging thermal runaway propagation prevention. These design choices all greatly impact the choice and deployment of fire protection materials.

The EV market continues its strong growth, and with more vehicles on the road, it is becoming more critical than ever to provide effective protection from thermal runaway. Regulations are continuing to develop, putting a greater focus on battery safety, leading to greater opportunities for material suppliers.
https://www.azocleantech.com/news.aspx?newsID=34629

Most EV's use cells like conventional batteries but this report states that many companies are moving to soft pouches "Prismatic Cells" for increased energy density and better heat dissipation and lower weight. These cells will depend on the container they are installed in for puncture resistance. This make the cells much more vulnerable to damage and thus thermal runaway.

Councils and gubment are not talking to each other on traffic humps. An EV car going too fast over a hump may well damage the battery, and cause a fiery catastrophe. They have both shut their eyes to what they are doing with councils wasting taxpayers money on humps which only cause damage to vehicles and have no effect on keeping accident rates down..

[M5Rick]

Originally Posted by eugenebmw

Sorry for talking about shit here Those new green toliets suppose to save our planet too by using less water to complete the flush. You know what, I have to flush it twice almost every time I use. Am I the odd one to flush it twice? I don't think so. Are they really saving our planet??

Water wastage is a good point and I'm always telling my fold to just use enough water for your needs.

[metrixBMW]

I ain't got the balls to keep one out of warranty.

[Ugly Kar]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

Good for you, but for me it would take 9 years to make up the difference in price between an ICE and an equal EV even if the electricity were FREE! And certainly it's not.

But I'm also not looney enough to compare a cheap econobox to a very upscale luxury SUV and think I'm doing an apples to apples comparison.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by gilberjj

You have had two people with real world experience explain that electric cars are many times cheaper than ICE cars RIGHT NOW. It doesn’t have anything to do with politics or electric grids or transmission efficiency… gas cars are way more expensive to operate. Electricity rates have always been more stable than oil prices, so your argument seems illogical to me.
And I know this is regionally specific, but where I live in the Pacific Northwest, we have cheap, plentiful and reliable hydro power. There isn’t a car on earth which is cheaper to operate.
IF you have a two car household, and you have a consistent commute, electric cars will save you money now. Your argument that it may be more expensive of this harbinger of expensive future renewables is nonsense. I already showed with basic math and facts that it’s many times cheaper. But here’s the thing, I really don’t care if you drive a diesel, gas, electric or whatever. But you’re spewing total nonsense.
My electric car has already saved me thousands. You’re not going to convince me otherwise, because it’s a fact. I don’t see myself getting anything but an electric car if and when my current one dies or no longer serves our needs.

Overall costs considered, EV are not less expensive. If you compare equivalent-class ICEV and EV, the added cost of the battery in the EV pays for about 70,000 miles of fuel for the ICEV. In your case you have an EV commuter, so you are paying for registration, maintenance, and insurance on a 2nd car. You have the EV as a 2nd car because all around, it doesn't work as well as an ICEV; it has a narrow use case. You could own just one ICEV that fits all of your needs and it would be less expensive to use as your personal transportation device.

[ASAP]

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Overall costs considered, EV are not less expensive.

I think you left off one very important bit. The true cost of ownership of any vehicle must include it's trade in value in the equation. The resell value of EV's shows very high depreciation and that factors into the cost of operation.
Also EV's tend to be traded or leases turned in much earlier that ICE vehicles allow shorter times for cost averaging of purchase.

The folks are figuring this out.

[Car-Addicted]

Originally Posted by ASAP

i know it's not apples for apples and people will get salty... but to this day, there is no cheaper form of automotive transport than a Toyota Corolla for 23k lol... and it gets 40 mpg hwy... virtually 0 maintanence... and you can sell it w 200k miles for 10k if that's still to expensive

And this choice is also far better for the environment on top of that. I would never wish boring cars on anyone but sometimes you just need good dependable transportation.