[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by baege

man this goes to show how subjective it all is

I had a 350Z and a 2015C7 and those two cars are 2 of my least favourites!

I find the VQ sounds like a coffee grinder in the upper rpm range. I traded it for a crossfire (yes you read that right) and liked it better than the 350Z.

I went from a 2014 Cayman S to a 2015 C7 7 speed and did not like it all (too big, weak PARTIAL throttle response, bad visbiility), sold it within weeks and ended up in a 2016 Cayman S

different strokes (and bores!) for different folks!

I loved that abrasiveness aof the VQ. It felt like a real.machine to me. That and it's exhaust noise, especially with like a NISMO cat back... The best sounding V6 IMO. VW VR6s are the only thing that really comes close IMO.

I will give you, Corvette throttles are tuned to be lazy. That's why they sell so many throttle manipulators for them, GM intentionally makes throttle.reapknse "lazy" so that the geriatrics that buy them don't plow them into everything by accident, but if you're used to the razor sharp throttle response of a German car I can totally get being out of by it. When I get into my Vette after weeks of the X5 I'm always struck by just how laid back the Vette feels on the throttle.

The C7 is not my favorite generation. It's my 3rd least favorite. Least favorite is the trash heap C8, 2nd least favorite is the C1 (sacrilege I know), and then 3rd least favorite is C7. I think they added too much tech vs the C6, and the styling went downhill dramatically. They're fast, but just less appealing to me. But hey, at least they still offer a manual.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Yes a Cayman is very small and tight, a 911 is considerably easier to live with, one could argue it's biggest strength is livability.

Ummmm....the 987 Cayman has same front end from the seat backs to the front of the car as the 997 911 minus the bumper cover, upper dashboard, and some minor door differences. Otherwise, same width, and overall driver/passenger dimensions and same parts. I'm 6' 2" with a 34" inseam and fit fine. I can't get the seat back much further but for a tall guy like myself, works perfectly. I've taken 800 mile road trips in the thing and it was perfect so much fun.

Tons of room in the frunk, lots of room in the trunk, the door cards have lidded bins, and there are two lidded bins behind the seats plus a cargo net on the shelf behind the seats. Not sure where people get the idea that a Cayman is some tiny little car cause it's not. It's a small car for sure, but full of utility. It is NOTHING like a Miata, Z4, or the like in terms of interior room and utility.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

Ummmm....the 987 Cayman has same front end from the seat backs to the front of the car as the 997 911 minus the bumper cover, upper dashboard, and some minor door differences. Otherwise, same width, and overall driver/passenger dimensions and same parts. I'm 6' 2" with a 34" inseam and fit fine. I can't get the seat back much further but for a tall guy like myself, works perfectly. I've taken 800 mile road trips in the thing and it was perfect so much fun.

Tons of room in the frunk, lots of room in the trunk, the door cards have lidded bins, and there are two lidded bins behind the seats plus a cargo net on the shelf behind the seats. Not sure where people get the idea that a Cayman is some tiny little car cause it's not. It's a small car for sure, but full of utility. It is NOTHING like a Miata, Z4, or the like in terms of interior room and utility.

It's the lack of storage and inability to tote 4 people. With 2 people in the 911 you can have both seats all the way back, you have the frunk to swallow shit but you also have the space where the rear seats are to store shit. It's just easier to live with.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by baege

man this goes to show how subjective it all is

I had a 350Z and a 2015C7 and those two cars are 2 of my least favourites!

I find the VQ sounds like a coffee grinder in the upper rpm range. I traded it for a crossfire (yes you read that right) and liked it better than the 350Z.

I went from a 2014 Cayman S to a 2015 C7 7 speed and did not like it all (too big, weak PARTIAL throttle response, bad visbiility), sold it within weeks and ended up in a 2016 Cayman S

different strokes (and bores!) for different folks!

I've owned, modded, and raced a VQ30 (1996 Maxima 5MT, 7 years) and a VQ35 (2003 G35, 7 years) and worked on and drove many VQ37s. I'd have to say he is the first one I've ever heard say a VQ37 sounds good The VQ30 actually sounded good. The VQ35 not so much and the VQ37 definitely not and felt like it was coming a part above 6000rpms. The VQ30 is nearly BMW I6 in terms of smoothness and engine flexibility. The 2.9 in my Cayman reminds me very much of that VQ30.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've owned, modded, and raced a VQ30 (1996 Maxima 5MT, 7 years) and a VQ35 (2003 G35, 7 years) and worked on and drove many VQ37s. I'd have to say he is the first one I've ever heard say a VQ37 sounds good The VQ30 actually sounded good. The VQ35 not so much and the VQ37 definitely not and felt like it was coming a part above 6000rpms. The VQ30 is nearly BMW I6 in terms of smoothness and engine flexibility. The 2.9 in my Cayman reminds me very much of that VQ30.

Wild, G35s and 350Z were like, well known for having amazing sounding exhausts in my circles. An the FX35 as well. They just sounded like no other v6 and sounded amazing to me and all my buddies at the time.

I nearly bought a first gen FX35 because it just sounded so damn good. It was gorgeous too. And had an amazingly comfortable interior. I would still love one if they weren't all beat to hell, lol.

[Alfisti]

Yeah the 350 and 370Z engines, I know absolutely nothing about them other than they sound and feel awful.

[ShocknAwe]

Went to Costco in my 911 today. No issues with space.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

Wild, G35s and 350Z were like, well known for having amazing sounding exhausts in my circles. An the FX35 as well. They just sounded like no other v6 and sounded amazing to me and all my buddies at the time.

I nearly bought a first gen FX35 because it just sounded so damn good. It was gorgeous too. And had an amazingly comfortable interior. I would still love one if they weren't all beat to hell, lol.

They have a nice warble in the low to mid rpms assuming it's the stock exhaust. Problem is, most people put exhausts and/or headers on the VQs and that's when it gets real bad. A VQ with an exhaust is probably the worst sounding engine next to a 3800 GM V6 or a Coyote V8 with an exhaust/headers. I think Alfa is the only company that has figured out how to make a V6 sound really good, IMO.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

They have a nice warble in the low to mid rpms assuming it's the stock exhaust. Problem is, most people put exhausts and/or headers on the VQs and that's when it gets real bad. A VQ with an exhaust is probably the worst sounding engine next to a 3800 GM V6 or a Coyote V8 with an exhaust/headers. I think Alfa is the only company that has figured out how to make a V6 sound really good, IMO.

See I think the coyote sounds fantastic. Better than my LS motors as much as it pains me to admit it. I will admit, most of them go with obnoxiously loud setups, but they sound great usually.

The vr6 motors in the VW R32s always sounded great. I think the V6 in the Jag F Type sounds good too. As much as it pains me, the 3.0t in the Explorer ST sounds good with the thermal R&D 3" exhaust too (they don't sound anywhere nearly as good with others though). The turbo V6 in newer RS5s is pretty good too, but a major downgrade from the V8 they had.

Subaru boxers have issues with headers making them sound like crap too. You have to maintain the right phase for the exhaust pulses or they sound like crap. People go equal.length and then they just sound blah. That's kinda the deal with the VW motors as well I think.

[baege]

Originally Posted by XutvJet

I've owned, modded, and raced a VQ30 (1996 Maxima 5MT, 7 years) and a VQ35 (2003 G35, 7 years) and worked on and drove many VQ37s. I'd have to say he is the first one I've ever heard say a VQ37 sounds good The VQ30 actually sounded good. The VQ35 not so much and the VQ37 definitely not and felt like it was coming a part above 6000rpms. The VQ30 is nearly BMW I6 in terms of smoothness and engine flexibility. The 2.9 in my Cayman reminds me very much of that VQ30.

the VQ30 was indeed a buttery smooth engine, I had a 1991 300Zx NA and loved revving that thing out!

got the VQ35 thinking it would offer the same, but sure did not! Coffee grinder sensation and sound INSIDE the car above 4000 rpm, the exhaust sounds good just not the engine sounds coming from the front of the car

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

The C4 ran for basically forever by modern standards. 84-96, and the performance difference between them is HUGE.

They're great cars, I would highly recommend getting one now, as prices for good ones are steadily climbing. Your Z4 unless it's an M Coupe would get annihilated by an LT1 Z51 6 speed C4. They're fairly light, make a decent bit of power, and the mix of chassis, suspension, and decent rubber is great. And the steering feel, well that's just sublime. The whole car is super analog, super communicative, and just a joy.

I checked the performance numbers for the 1989 LT1 245 HP 350 TQ. 5.4 secs. 0 to 60. 3200 pounds. The Z4 3.0si is 255 HP and 240 TQ. Weight is 3,080 pounds. 0 to 60 in 5.6 secs. (BMW's number), Car and Driver got 5.3 from a 3.0si Roadster. I've seen somewhere 5.1 for the 3.0si Coupe. Lacking lap numbers to analyze, I'd say the performance is probably not that great of a gap in either direction. But the point is for me, my Z4 gives similar numbers to a C4. Now that's saying a lot for the C4, being it's 20 years senior to the E86 3.0si. And in my fleet of 5 cars none are duplicates, adding C4 would gain me a 2nd sports coupe. I'm not ever giving up the Z4, I like it way too much.

My truck is a GM small block, so I have a classic GM V8 already (sadly tied to a 4L60, ugh).

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I checked the performance numbers for the 1989 LT1 245 HP 350 TQ. 5.4 secs. 0 to 60. 3200 pounds. The Z4 3.0si is 255 HP and 240 TQ. Weight is 3,080 pounds. 0 to 60 in 5.6 secs. (BMW's number), Car and Driver got 5.3 from a 3.0si Roadster. I've seen somewhere 5.1 for the 3.0si Coupe. Lacking lap numbers to analyze, I'd say the performance is probably not that great of a gap in either direction. But the point is for me, my Z4 gives similar numbers to a C4. Now that's saying a lot for the C4, being it's 20 years senior to the E86 3.0si. And in my fleet of 5 cars none are duplicates, adding C4 would gain me a 2nd sports coupe. I'm not ever giving up the Z4, I like it way too much.

My truck is a GM small block, so I have a classic GM V8 already (sadly tied to a 4L60, ugh).

1989 is an L98, first year of the 6 speed but it's basically a legit old school small block Chevy with port injection. Very little top end, and not a ton of power. LT1s came around in 1992, upped the HP to 300 and torque to 300 as well. 5.1 to 5.3 0-60 is probably where I'd expect them to land with a 6 speed driven well. I think they're a bit more like 3300 lbs stock. They're a performance BARGAIN too, especially if you're open to modding. If not, a 1996 LT4 is probably good for mid to high 4 second sprints to 60. I suspect that outside of a really tight course like an autocross, the LT1/4 C4 would just absolutely run away from the Z4 on a track. I suspect the Z4 would wipe the floor with the c4 around an autocross or similarly twisty track, because the c4 is likely a good bit larger, and the chassis of the Z4 is going to undoubtedly be much much stiffer.

You're wrong about the duplicates. Your Z4 is a European sports convertible or roadster. The C4 would be an American sports/muscle classic car. Totally different enough to not be duplicates if you added a 6th car, lol. I'll even have an AI write you a semi convincing report on why you can give to your wife as proof that they're not duplicates if you want, lol.

[Efthreeoh]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

1989 is an L98, first year of the 6 speed but it's basically a legit old school small block Chevy with port injection. Very little top end, and not a ton of power. LT1s came around in 1992, upped the HP to 300 and torque to 300 as well. 5.1 to 5.3 0-60 is probably where I'd expect them to land with a 6 speed driven well. I think they're a bit more like 3300 lbs stock. They're a performance BARGAIN too, especially if you're open to modding. If not, a 1996 LT4 is probably good for mid to high 4 second sprints to 60. I suspect that outside of a really tight course like an autocross, the LT1/4 C4 would just absolutely run away from the Z4 on a track. I suspect the Z4 would wipe the floor with the c4 around an autocross or similarly twisty track, because the c4 is likely a good bit larger, and the chassis of the Z4 is going to undoubtedly be much much stiffer.

You're wrong about the duplicates. Your Z4 is a European sports convertible or roadster. The C4 would be an American sports/muscle car. Totally different enough to not be duplicates if you added a 6th car, lol. I'll even have an AI write you a semi convincing report on why you can give to your wife as proof that they're not duplicates if you want, lol.

And I could have picked up a Z4M Coupe if I wanted to back in 2014, but I chose the N52 because of the reliability with respect to daily'ing it about 17,000 miles/year (back in the day). A rat (maybe a squirrel) made the Z4 its home/food storage locker back in October and chewed a few wire harnesses, one which was the knock sensors. I just finished all the repairs last night and took the Z4 out for a test run on my private 17-mile racetrack (i.e. my local mountain roads). While I had the intake off the head, I replaced the DISA valves, with the ECU once again picking up pre-detonation data, it's running at peak output. It's such a beautiful car to drive. With our discussion in this thread in mind, driving last night my thought was, I just can't see the need for a more powerful but heavier and larger sports coupe, American or foreign. While I'm sure we all share Leno's disease for the desire to collect cars, I'll be first to admit I am budget limited (as most of us are ). My wife drives a manual Z3 Roadster, I doubt anything AI (or me) would come up with could make a compelling argument. Plus, I have a 1,500cc flat-6 scooter in the mix as well.

[BlkGS]

It's a different type of experience. With something like a C4, the fun is the sound, the comfort when not pushing it, the burnouts, the stoplight drag races, etc. I can understand that being what appeals to people, the Z4 is a great car with a phenomenal chassis and a a motor that loves to rev. And to be fair, the C4 is significantly less comfortable than the later vettes. You could easily drive a C5 across country in comfort and never feel like it was a hassle. The C4 would probably be a bit of a pain to go across country in, its stiffer suspension and bendier frame, and the major upgrade in practicality the C5 was (the C5 has a much more usable cargo area, easier ingress and egress, and is a much softer car in general).

I have an irrational desire for a C3. They do nothing better than a C4 except arguably looks. I think I'd hardly ever drove a c3, I'd just look at it, lol.

[XutvJet]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

See I think the coyote sounds fantastic. Better than my LS motors as much as it pains me to admit it. I will admit, most of them go with obnoxiously loud setups, but they sound great usually.

Once you add headers and exhaust to the Coyote, it becomes ridiculous with rasp and volume. 2 stroke chainsaw is what comes to mind for me. The pushrod 5.0 in the Fox body had the best sound by far of any fuel injected domestic V8, stock or modified, IMO. I love that motor, especially with a cam, heads, headers, and intake manifold to let her breath. The 4.6 DOHC in the 96-98 Cobras was pretty damn good sounding too when done right. Guys with modded Coyotes are apparently a deaf. Same with most of the 350/370Z crowd

[Alfisti]

NFI why you'd mod a Coyote, the factory option active exhaust was excellent. Ability to time what you get at different times of the day, there's Quiet, Loud and Go Fuck Yourself modes. That's all you need.

[BlkGS]

The trick with modded Coyotes is to listen to them from about a mile away. Then they sound great, lol.

I didn't love the old pushrod 5.0 sound. The best pushrod V8 sound IMO is the Dodge 392. They sound splendid, and even get better sounding with exhaust mods. The 6.1L SRT Hemi was awesome sounding too.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

NFI why you'd mod a Coyote, the factory option active exhaust was excellent. Ability to time what you get at different times of the day, there's Quiet, Loud and Go Fuck Yourself modes. That's all you need.

2 reasons, long tubes add tons of power, and the stock modes are too quiet for some.

[Alfisti]

Originally Posted by BlkGS

2 reasons, long tubes add tons of power, and the stock modes are too quiet for some.

Wow, loud mode is plenty loud, NFI why you'd want louder TBH.

[BlkGS]

Originally Posted by Alfisti

Wow, loud mode is plenty loud, NFI why you'd want louder TBH.

More loud = more better

Also if you're coming from a history of other cars with long tubes and straight pipe exhausts... Things start being harder to hear all the time for what I'm sure are totally unrelated reasons.

[Alfisti]

It's kinda sad that the new PP Mustang is not as good as the S550 PP2.

[Finlandr]

Originally Posted by dgoldenz

Have to disagree, everyone still wants a GT3 which is why they're $30-50k over for a 3 year old used one with miles on it. They just increased the base price by $40k because they know people will pay it for that hard edged sports car.

They could easily put a NA engine in any of the base lineup but they don't because it forces people to go after a GT3 which keeps values up, and of course everyone wants something they can't get.

Prices have gone into the stratosphere though, with a loaded 911 T being upwards of $180k now when a few years ago a loaded 991.2 GTS was $160k and is now closer to $220k. You've got a whole lot of great options when you're getting into that kind of price range. Hopefully Porsche doesn't kill the golden goose by getting too greedy.

No, that's not why ....it's because of emissions that they went to turbos in the base 911's.